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9/11 media happenings

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TheArchitect said:
That makes it a matter of belief, not reason, and we're not here for a religious argument.
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I'm afraid that for Jazzz, hard evidence, expert testimony and credibly sourced facts come a loooooong second to his conspiracy beliefs.

He can't rationally explain how on earth 'they' could have invisibly filled the WTC with a massive cache of explosives without a single person in the building noticing, so he'll just ignore that bit or go on about magic, top secret military technology (see his earlier claims for holographic planes, invisible pods, missile planes, FBI Mike Yarwood Divisions etc etc).
 
TheArchitect said:
Well at least no-one here is claiming that the lowermost part of the building should have arrested the collapse - are they?
I have made the argument that there is no official explanation for the failure of the central steel columns without recourse to CD. I might also argue the above, but first my opponent would have to explain why the concrete had all turned to dust and there was no large rubble.

Peter Tully, president of [Tully Construction], was, notably, the only person willing to speak openly with AFP about his work at the WTC site. ... “Think of the thousands of file cabinets, computers, and telephones in those towers—I never saw one—every thing was pulverized,” Tully said. “Everything that was above grade—above the 6th and 7th floor—disintegrated . . . it was like an explosion.” Tully Construction specializes in concrete. AFP asked Tully if he had ever seen concrete pulverized as it was at the WTC. “No—never,” he said. [AFP] source
 
Jazzz said:
I'll be happy to elaborate on the evidence for CD (much of which you can find in Steve Jones' paper).
Why are you ignoring the expert analysis of suitably qualified demolition professionals in preference to the rather singular opinion of the discredited Jones, who has zero experience or qualifications on controlled demolitions?
 
Jazzz said:
I have made the argument that there is no official explanation for the failure of the central steel columns without recourse to CD. I might also argue the above, but first my opponent would have to explain why the concrete had all turned to dust and there was no large rubble.
Does Peter Tully support your invisible explosives theory? Has he actually said that the towers were brought down by explosives?

No. You're doing your usual dishonest selective quoting trick again.

http://www.tullyconstruction.com/news/read.asp?pj=2
 
kyser_soze said:
And all the while NONE of you conspiracy lot seem to be interested in what Bob Woodward said about the CIA warning Bush, Cheney and Rice about a week before 9/11 that there would be an attack on US soil, and that it would be a big one, and that his information came from several sources from US and other intelligence assets.
Not "made it happen".

Not "let it happen".

Just had a fucking system which didn't pick up things which should have been picked up, or, more worryingly, picked them up and then didn't heed them. Things which could (maybe) have been acted upon. That is by far and away the most likely culpability of the US Government.

And all the while conspiracy theorists are chasing shadows and ghosts no-one is asking the actual, genuine, difficult questions. :rolleyes:
 
editor said:
Does Peter Tully support your invisible explosives theory? Has he actually said that the towers were brought down by explosives?

No. You're doing your usual dishonest selective quoting trick again.

http://www.tullyconstruction.com/news/read.asp?pj=2
You are the one being dishonest, or incredibly stupid. I produced his quote to demonstrate that there was practically no rubble out of the WTC as part of a discourse with TheArchitect. No more, no less.
 
pk said:
Everything the Bush admin has tried to do has backfired.

They're a joke.

New Orleans, Enron, Iraq, you name it.

Yet according to some they pulled off the most adventurous hoax in the history of the world without a hitch.

:D

Fuck off.

New Orleans, Enron, Iraq, you name it, Everything they touch shouts lies cover-ups and bullshit including 9/11. 9/11 did not go without a hitch. Their incompetence - incompetence that is frankly beyond belief - is there for all to see (http://www.911pressfortruth.com/)

Yet according to PK in the case of 9/11 despite all the questions and inconsistencies raised by credible people (http://patriotsquestion911.com/), we can all believe Bush

:D

Fuck off yourself
 
Now that we're back to the same old links being slapped up and absolutely no new crdible information being presented, I think it's time that this one was closed.

I'm sure the handful of people still bothering with this thread will have already made their minds up about the credibility and persuasiveness of the (ahem) 'evidence' produced from the likes of Jazzz and Sparticus.

I know I have.
 
Jazzz said:
Sure, but as is being pointed out, wires would be noticed, and would take plenty of time on site. You cannot view this from a commercial/civilian framework, it must a military one. With unlimited expense and time spent planning and offsite, and the best military expertise one cannot say it would not be possible. And indeed you are not.

Years, not months, of planning. This was surely the dress rehearsal.
And you were doing so well. :(
 
Loki said:
This little beauty is a Klingon destroyer.

klidd.jpg


It's well known that the Klingon Empire acquired cloaking technology from the Romulans.

So, a cloaked destroyer, firing photon torpedoes from space fits all the facts.

It would be the perfect crime.
I note that nobody has been able to refute my theory thus far. The USG has so far not investigated this.

And I want to know why.
 
editor said:
Now that we're back to the same old links being slapped up and absolutely no new crdible information being presented, I think it's time that this one was closed.

I'm sure the handful of people still bothering with this thread will have already made their minds up about the credibility and persuasiveness of the (ahem) 'evidence' produced from the likes of Jazzz and Sparticus.

I know I have.
You're fucking priceless aren't you?

You post on these threads like a demented dog chasing his own tail, yapping the same tedious questions all the time, demanding that they be answered countless times (you must have attention), and then, apparently totally oblivious to your own behaviour you have the chutzpah to close threads because 'they aren't going anywhere' - of course, you see to that.

You utter twat!

Anyway, I do request that you close the thread again. Stop me wasting my time lowering myself to your level of 'discussion'. :rolleyes:
 
Jazzz said:
You're fucking priceless aren't you?

You post on these threads like a demented dog chasing his own tail, yapping the same tedious questions all the time, demanding that they be answered countless times
Priceless :D
 
What nonsense. It is entirely possible to reason and discuss different opinions on subjects without there being any requirement for anyone to come up with a blood-stained carving knife. This is not a court of law.

You have claimed that there is strong and compelling evidence of CD at WTC and yet you now claim there is no requirement to produce same?! In what possible way is that a logical conclusion?

There IS strong and compelling evidence which supports the official NIST findings. We know there was a fire. We know that steel fails in fires. There was structural damage from the impact. There was deformation of the external loadbearing envelope. Modelling by Sheffield, Cantebury, and other independent groups confirms the NIST findings.

You can't balance this with vitriol and thetoric. You MUST have some substantive evidence. So let's see it.


I'll be happy to elaborate on the evidence for CD (much of which you can find in Steve Jones' paper).

Jones produces no credible evidence. It's barely science.

But did you read the Fire Engineering article in which the investigation was described as 'half-baked farce'?

You're misquoting. I've read the Fire Engineering text before and can go and get it if you want, but ask youreself: do you really want me to make you look a fanny?

I have no proof of how the towers fell.

I suspected as much.
 
Jazzz said:
You utter twat!

Anyway, I do request that you close the thread again. Stop me wasting my time lowering myself to your level of 'discussion'.
*ignores yet more personal abuse.

I won't be closing this thread at your request. In fact, I'm going to enjoy watching you squirm and wriggle as your argument continues to be torn into teensy weensy little pieces.

The longer you stay on this thread with your laughable non-excuse of an argument ('the military have super secret, all-powerful, invisible hush hush technology, so it must have been them!'), the more ridiculous your conspiracy beliefs look, so feel free to keep on digging your hole.
 
Loki said:
I note that nobody has been able to refute my theory thus far. The USG has so far not investigated this.

And I want to know why.

If you were to read the "Project for a New Klingon Century" manifesto, you'd understand...
 
TheArchitect said:
You have claimed that there is strong and compelling evidence of CD at WTC and yet you now claim there is no requirement to produce same?! In what possible way is that a logical conclusion?
I am saying that I do not have to 'prove' an alternative opinion of how the towers fell in order to doubt the official version. Displacement of the burden of proof, a well-known logical fallacy and debating technique beloved of editor

There IS strong and compelling evidence which supports the official NIST findings. We know there was a fire. We know that steel fails in fires. There was structural damage from the impact. There was deformation of the external loadbearing envelope. Modelling by Sheffield, Cantebury, and other independent groups confirms the NIST findings.
You think you are somehow 'proving' (as you are demanding of me) anything with this cheesy list?

You can't balance this with vitriol and thetoric. You MUST have some substantive evidence. So let's see it.
If anyone out of the two of us is coming out with vitriol and rhetoric, it's you chum. My previous post to you was calm and lucid, and indeed took you up on your offer of debate about whether the lower level would withstand the upper ones collapsing, which I note you have ignored. And I note too you ignored my comment about the central steels failing. Strange for someone who appeared as if they would take on all-comers on the subject.

Jones produces no credible evidence. It's barely science.
Nonsense.

You're misquoting. I've read the Fire Engineering text before and can go and get it if you want, but ask youreself: do you really want me to make you look a fanny?
I made no misquote: contrasts with your highly selective quoting of me, projection?

I'm not holding up much hope here for any meaningful discussion, for someone called 'TheArchitect' you are pretty disappointing, and have resorted to some very childish abuse after only one exchange :rolleyes:
 
Jazzz said:
I am saying that I do not have to 'prove' an alternative opinion of how the towers fell in order to doubt the official version. :
You have to come up with a remotely credible alternative based on some kind of non Sci-Fi reality, though.
 
Jazzz said:
I am saying that I do not have to 'prove' an alternative opinion of how the towers fell in order to doubt the official version.

But you're not just doubting the official version are you?
 
editor said:
You have to come up with a remotely credible alternative based on some kind of non Sci-Fi reality, though.
but in the world of Wibble the laws of physics and chemistry don't apply.
 
Tch Tch Tch

Jazz,

Your response regarding the evidential basis for any theory seems a little confused, and it may be helpful if I briefly return to basics.

In investigating any phenomenon, scientific or otherwise, the principles are well established. We assemble the evidence and analyse it to an appropriate level. We then test our hypetheses, or theories, against the evidence and select that explains and supports the evidence most comprehensively. You will also be aware of tests such as Occam's Razor.

What we do not do is start with a hypothesis and then cherry pick evidence to suit our predetermined starting point.

Now when we look at WTC, NIST identified a significant - many of us would say overwhelming - body of evidence which supports their findings. We know the planes hit, and we know that there was immediate damage to the loadbearing envelope. We know that there were severe fires. We know that the external structure buckled and failed, leading to collapse.

If we look at alternative hyptheses, we see nothing like this level of evidence. For example the only physical evidence of explosives is the photographs of the so-called squibs, however these in turn can be attributed to other (simpler) failure mechanisms. There are no remains of chargers. There is no evidence of placement of material. There is no evidence of the means of detonation.

Therefore this theory is not supported by the actual evidence and no amount of hand-waving and vague reference to qui bono will suffice to make it the most plausible explanation.

Now this basic scientific premise is neither new or unique; it underpins scientific and rational thought throughout the World, including higher education.

I therefore challenge you: if you have substantive evidence which will outweigh the highly detailed NIST findings then bring it forward in a comprehensive, measured manner which we can then discuss.

If you do not have such evidence then I have to ask how you arrived with such certainty at your conclusions?

Now, lets turn to Fire Engineering which you imply supports the accusations of nefarious Government wrong doing at WTC. For those unfamiliar with it, there are two relevant articles.

Copies of the first can be found at:

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Arti...n=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=130026

Now if we read the article, we see that the complaint is actually over issues such as resourcing of firefighting in tall buildings, the risk posed by lightweight trusses, inadequately robust historic fireproofing, poor radio communication, and concerns over the "defend in place" strategy.

The second, and the one you show greatest interest in, states:

Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time.

Most damingly, given your accusation that it is a smoking gun, the article then directly refers back to the very issues raised in the first article!

http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Arti...n=Display&PUBLICATION_ID=25&ARTICLE_ID=131225

Even if we do consider the Fire Engineering article to be relevent, we have to set it against the context of other relevant professional papers. I see no mention in you post of (for example) the Sheffield University paper. Or the Edinburgh University and OveArup alternative models. If you are serious about analysing evidence and arriving at informed view, you should already have these to hand. Do you?

I shall await your reply with interest.
 
Part II

I have made the argument that there is no official explanation for the failure of the central steel columns without recourse to CD. I might also argue the above, but first my opponent would have to explain why the concrete had all turned to dust and there was no large rubble.


With the deepest respect, this is in no way an informed or informative hypothesis; little more than a soundbite.

Are you claiming that the central steel columns would have withstood the impact and fires? Are you claiming that it was their failure which initiated the collapse, not the floor trusses? Are you claiming that they should have stood on their own following the collapse of the external envelope?

Once you produce a cogent statement of what you believe happened, then I will respond to it.

Likewise I would be very much obliged if you could provide evidence that there was no large rubble. I have seen many, many photographs of the debris field (which was substantial) and large pieces of debris within. This included steel, concrete, and other constructional fragments.

I can provide the links, but again am trying hard not to make you look like a right fanny.
 
Cheers, but I'd like him to lay out EXACTLY what he thinks should have happened and the evidential/evidencial basis for such a hypothesis - just to be sure that we understand his deeply held beliefs properly.
 
TheArchitect said:
Cheers, but I'd like him to lay out EXACTLY what he thinks should have happened and the evidential/evidencial basis for such a hypothesis - just to be sure that we understand his deeply held beliefs properly.

Good luck...
 
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