9/11 media happenings

[editor]

It may not be easy but I don't accept impossible. They could have had plenty of time to prepare - as William Rodriguez said in his talk an entire floor of the WTC was unoccupied, workers would come and go all the time.

Funny how William Rodriguez didn't notice anything!

Did you ever go to the WTC, Jazzz? You couldn't just wander around from floor to floor and wheel mysterious massive boxes and cables around, you know.

And how come not a single one of the tens of thousands of workers, security staff, floor managers, cleaners, maintenance staff and office managers noticed single wire?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

It may not be easy but I don't accept impossible. They could have had plenty of time to prepare - as William Rodriguez said in his talk an entire floor of the WTC was unoccupied, workers would come and go all the time. Plus we know of the power-down in the days running up to 9/11 when there were workers all over the place. I don't think they would worry too much about an explosion going off prematurely, and in fact I'm sure many did. Nor do they have to worry about detonating it 'safely' as is the case with any usual CD.

So it's not every floor (as your sources claim to replicate the effect seen). It's one, possibly one that would be hit by an aircraft traveling at 500mph. There is no way on earth you can ensure that the explosives won't be disturbed by the impact. If you disturb the explosives you might as well not have placed them.

Power down? Workers all over the place? Are we talking thousands of men here with power tools to cut through the insulation, the explosives themselves, extra wires throughout the building, instituting radio and mobile phone silence to prevent RF detonation...

You do not grasp the scale here.

 

[Lock&Light]

And how come not a single one of the tens of thousands of workers, security staff, floor managers, cleaners, maintenance staff and office managers noticed single wire?

Even if no-one had noticed anything, the risk of it happening and thereby revealing the whole devilish plot would have been totally unacceptable to the plotters.

 

[kyser_soze]

Jazzz, have you actually looked at any websites like Controlled Demolition and seen how much wiring, let alone explosive, actually has to be DRILLED into the fabric of a building? On how many floors? And the vast numbers of people it would take to wire a building the size of the WTC in a single day if you're arguing the power-down thing?

Seriously mate, even if they weren't making it a 'safe' CD, you simply can't wire that many floors with that much explosive without anyone noticing - shifting materials around on that scale simply doesn't go unseen, especially somewhere like the WTC! Have a look see at CDI, and at least try and understand that the kind of work you're talking about, over multiple floors and spread out over several weeks of intense work IN AN ABANDONED BUILDING.

And then think about how you would go about wiring a building that was in use everyday by 000s of people. And also consider that the delicacy of the wiring involved - it would have to survive the shock of a plane hitting it, and still everything would need to detonate in sequence etc etc.

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=7&reqItemId=20030226152529

 

[editor]

Here's what preparing a building for demolition actually involves (in the real world, at least):

"Hi. I'm just delivering the mail"

"We're just looking for a bit of damp rot"

http://www.phillyblast.com/HollanderRidge/hrt-prep.htm

 

[Jazzz]

Funny how William Rodriguez didn't notice anything!

Did you ever go to the WTC, Jazzz? You couldn't just wander around from floor to floor and wheel mysterious massive boxes and cables around, you know.

And how come not a single one of the tens of thousands of workers, security staff, floor managers, cleaners, maintenance staff and office managers noticed single wire?

William Rodriguez has explained how - because indeed there were thousands of support staff, as you mention - there would be nothing remarkable about people coming and going, all times day or night, people you didn't recognise, with equipment, you let them get on with their job. I see no reason not to believe him.

But yes, how come no-one noticed a wire? I guess that scuppers it. Don't suppose the US military has access to remote control devices (of course not, we went over that with planes). Come to think of it they didn't notice a giant black box with a really big plunger thing parked outside the WTC either. You got me there.

 

[Jazzz]

So it's not every floor (as your sources claim to replicate the effect seen). It's one, possibly one that would be hit by an aircraft traveling at 500mph. There is no way on earth you can ensure that the explosives won't be disturbed by the impact. If you disturb the explosives you might as well not have placed them.

Power down? Workers all over the place? Are we talking thousands of men here with power tools to cut through the insulation, the explosives themselves, extra wires throughout the building, instituting radio and mobile phone silence to prevent RF detonation...

You do not grasp the scale here.

I mention the entire unoccupied floor as an example of how easy it would be to find space to store things, come and go, etc.

You don't need to place explosives on the impact floor.

 

[kyser_soze]

William Rodriguez has explained how - because indeed there were thousands of support staff, as you mention - there would be nothing remarkable about people coming and going, all times day or night, people you didn't recognise, with equipment, you let them get on with their job. I see no reason not to believe him.

Ah right, so no one in two or three buildings noticed these staff drilling holes into the columns of the offices that they were working in, the demolition people somehow managed to integrate into the suspended ceilings and floors all the wiring and explosives necessary (all the time when people were working at their desks), and also managed to avoid getting any of the wires severed when the planes hit the buildings, or any other problems that are generally associated with CD implosions?

And all the while NONE of you conspiracy lot seem to be interested in what Bob Woodward said about the CIA warning Bush, Cheney and Rice about a week before 9/11 that there would be an attack on US soil, and that it would be a big one, and that his information came from several sources from US and other intelligence assets.

No, banging on about controlled demolition is obviously the way forward...

 

[kyser_soze]

I mention the entire unoccupied floor as an example of how easy it would be to find space to store things, come and go, etc.

You don't need to place explosives on the impact floor.

No but you need to accurately place explosives all over the building, have them connected to each other and all this happening in a building with 000s of people in it, without them being inconvenienced? Can Mr Rodriguez get any support from witnesses who worked on any floors in the WTC where these explosives would have been planted?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Dear god you're not getting this.

Jazzz You DO NOT use radio detonators if you can't ensure that you're not going to have any issues with RF noise. You don't even take mobiles near electical detonators just in case. Doing it by radio means you'd first have to test the signal (difficult) site the explosives (finding some way to prevent RF noise setting them off at all) and then find some way of coding a signal, essentailly have each detonator working off a laptop with a custom made transmitter and reciever as there is no such thing presently.

A wire? Thousands of wires.

Thousands of people able to rig buildings for demolition, you'd have to use the military for that, there just isn't enough people in any other organisation to do it. Then you've got to find a way to replace those thousands of support staff with the military people without letting anyone notice. Or rely upon the inhouse sparkys not talking note of the people who've taken over thier work. Or the local unions for not doing the same.

 

[kyser_soze]

And all this without ANYONE noticing...

 

[Jazzz]

Jazzz, have you actually looked at any websites like Controlled Demolition and seen how much wiring, let alone explosive, actually has to be DRILLED into the fabric of a building? On how many floors? And the vast numbers of people it would take to wire a building the size of the WTC in a single day if you're arguing the power-down thing?

Seriously mate, even if they weren't making it a 'safe' CD, you simply can't wire that many floors with that much explosive without anyone noticing - shifting materials around on that scale simply doesn't go unseen, especially somewhere like the WTC! Have a look see at CDI, and at least try and understand that the kind of work you're talking about, over multiple floors and spread out over several weeks of intense work IN AN ABANDONED BUILDING.

And then think about how you would go about wiring a building that was in use everyday by 000s of people. And also consider that the delicacy of the wiring involved - it would have to survive the shock of a plane hitting it, and still everything would need to detonate in sequence etc etc.

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=7&reqItemId=20030226152529

Well then do it recklessly - terrorists manage to detonate bombs without huge amounts of wiring. They do it remotely! It's going to cost more to have charges detonated by remote control but that wouldn't be an issue. This is not an area of expertise for me but I see no reason why wires would be necessary. You prepare a lot of devices, then all you need to do is position them.

 

[editor]

William Rodriguez has explained how - because indeed there were thousands of support staff, as you mention - there would be nothing remarkable about people coming and going, all times day or night, people you didn't recognise, with equipment, you let them get on with their job. I see no reason not to believe him.

So you think people just scattered a few boxes about and no one in the offices bothered to wonder what they were, let alone even notice them?

I went to the WTC many times and - just like any modern office complex - you couldn't just amble from floor to floor without a security pass.

And the notion that mysterious operatives could just shunt vast stockpiles of explosives at strategic locations on a huge amount of floors without a single one of the tens of thousands of workers noticing is sheer sci-fi.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Well then do it recklessly - terrorists manage to detonate bombs without huge amounts of wiring. They do it remotely! It's going to cost more to have charges detonated by remote control but that wouldn't be an issue. This is not an area of expertise for me but I see no reason why wires would be necessary. You prepare a lot of devices, then all you need to do is position them.

No. You don't. You are wrong.

 

[editor]

Well then do it recklessly - terrorists manage to detonate bombs without huge amounts of wiring. They do it remotely! It's going to cost more to have charges detonated by remote control but that wouldn't be an issue. This is not an area of expertise for me but I see no reason why wires would be necessary. You prepare a lot of devices, then all you need to do is position them.

Do you think you might notice if a set of strangers came into your office and left large mysterious boxes at strategic locations, Jazzz?

How come not a single soul - and we're talking about tens of thousands of people here - in the entire WTC complex has mentioned people coming in with strange boxes and locating them by the windows with instructions that they must not be touched or moved?

 

[Jazzz]

Dear god you're not getting this.

Jazzz You DO NOT use radio detonators if you can't ensure that you're not going to have any issues with RF noise. You don't even take mobiles near electical detonators just in case. Doing it by radio means you'd first have to test the signal (difficult) site the explosives (finding some way to prevent RF noise setting them off at all) and then find some way of coding a signal, essentailly have each detonator working off a laptop with a custom made transmitter and reciever as there is no such thing presently.

Right, so radio detonation is possible even in your experience. And we are talking about the best the US military has to offer here. I am sure they could do it.

 

[editor]

Right, so radio detonation is possible even in your experience. And we are talking about the best the US military has to offer here. I am sure they could do it.

Bless. It's the "I've no proof, but I'm sure they can do it" argument all over again. Just like the remote control aircraft that flew invisibly over Long Island, eh?

Did they use equally top-secret cloaking technology to hide the explosives from the workers too then?

Can you offer a remotely sane explanation why not a single soul out of the thousands of WTC workers/staff/security teams etc managed to notice all these explosives, operatives and mysterious boxes please?

 

[Jazzz]

editor you've made that point maybe hundreds of times. You are entitled to your opinion. We are truly not going to agree there.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Right, so radio detonation is possible even in your experience. And we are talking about the best the US military has to offer here. I am sure they could do it.

Could, but wouldn't. It would be safer, easier and much more reliable to do it with wires. If you're playing with HE you take no chances even in my experience i know better.

 

[editor]

editor you've made that point maybe hundreds of times. You are entitled to your opinion. We are truly not going to agree there.

I wasn't making a point. I was asking a question.

Can you answer it?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

Or can you say why there has been none of these tens (if you've got a few years to do it) or hundreds of people (if you've got months) or thousands (if you've got days) have talked about it? Or how no one noticed entire engineering battalions disapearing off for a trip to New York?

 

[kyser_soze]

Well then do it recklessly

BUT...your central argument is that it was a CD, and in order to have a CD you need very carefully placed explosives (particularly if you want to achieve the 'implosion' effect). You can't have it both ways - it looks like a CD BUT all the explosives were placed recklessly.

And I challenge you to find a 50 storey building that has been collapsed by ANY terrorist in the controlled fashion you talk of. BTL has already patiently explained why using remote detonators in a building like the WTC wouldn't be feasible. I also challenge you to find me ANY evidence of CD being carried out using wireless remote detonation, and not fixed line.

 

[editor]

The one good one thing about Jazzz's unswerving devotion to his conspiracy theory is that he's helped make my mind up for sure that the WTC was not brought down by a controlled demolition.

Given the facts presented in this case (or, in Jazzz's case, the lack of facts), I can't see any remotely plausible means by which enough explosives to bring down an enormous - and hugely busy - building could have been brought in, situated in strategic locations and primed without a single soul noticing.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

This argument, yesterday

 

[TheArchitect]

This is all quite amusing, in a kind of sad way.

There can be little doubt that the actual collapse was initiated be deflection of the external load bearing envelope, per the various oft-circulated photographs.

Ergo the "CD" aspects would have revolved around the internal floor trusses.

So how would CD have caused them to sag and hence bring in the columns? Take out the bottom web, or the trusses would just fail? Take out the connection to the core columns?

Now any explosives placed at these points (for example) would not have been directed externally, hence no "squibs" as claimed by the CTers. Similarly how do you actually place the sheer amount of material required without anyone noticing? How do you know it'll work, since there's never been a CD like it?

But above all, what physical evidence do we have?

We HAVE physical evidence of planes hitting the building. We HAVE physical evidence of severe fires. We HAVE physical evidence of buckling of the external facades. We HAVE eyewitness reports of structural damage and requests for engineers.

We HAVE bugger all evidence of explosives.

 

[TheArchitect]

Well at least no-one here is claiming that the lowermost part of the building should have arrested the collapse - are they?

 

[WouldBe]

Well at least no-one here is claiming that the lowermost part of the building should have arrested the collapse - are they?

Not yet. It has been argued on other threads.

 

[Jazzz]

Could, but wouldn't. It would be safer, easier and much more reliable to do it with wires. If you're playing with HE you take no chances even in my experience i know better.

Sure, but as is being pointed out, wires would be noticed, and would take plenty of time on site. You cannot view this from a commercial/civilian framework, it must a military one. With unlimited expense and time spent planning and offsite, and the best military expertise one cannot say it would not be possible. And indeed you are not.

Years, not months, of planning. This was surely the dress rehearsal.

 

[TheArchitect]

But Jazz, you have no physical proof whatsoever for this.

That makes it a matter of belief, not reason, and we're not here for a religious argument.

If you have physical evidence of explosives, then produce it.

 

[Jazzz]

But Jazz, you have no physical proof whatsoever for this.

That makes it a matter of belief, not reason, and we're not here for a religious argument.

If you have physical evidence of explosives, then produce it.

What nonsense. It is entirely possible to reason and discuss different opinions on subjects without there being any requirement for anyone to come up with a blood-stained carving knife. This is not a court of law. I'll be happy to elaborate on the evidence for CD (much of which you can find in Steve Jones' paper). But did you read the Fire Engineering article in which the investigation was described as 'half-baked farce'? I have no proof of how the towers fell. But nor has anyone else.