15th April 1989, 22 years on and still no justice

[rosa]

Well I am big and ugly enough to admit that from reading many of the posts on here it is obvious that my own perceptions of what happened that day have been largely wrong. I guess I bought into this idea that ticketless fans were far more of a contributing factor than they were.

Actually fuck it. I had written a load more stuff about how we should all still take a little of the blame ourselves because of how, and to some extent still, footballing culture is but the truth is that I was wrong with what I had been implying and my apologies for that.

It's big of you to say that mate, thanks.

 

[rosa]

I had experiences in the late 90s of being on overfull terraces - at Oxford and Blackpool - which were terrifying, even if only momentarily. They were old terraces, completely obsolete in design, being managed poorly on the day for larger than expected numbers of supporters. I'm pretty much convinced that Oxford lied about the numbers inside the terrace that day, not so much to avoid tax but to avoid repercussions for breaching their safety certificate. The fact that these things still went on, albeit less frequently than before, 10 years after Hillsborough was depressing tbh

Arrrrrrgh Blackpool. The only time i've stood on terracing at a football ground (to be brutally honest you don't get big enough crowds at rugby league for the terracing to be a problem) and it put me off ever standing again. i was told by family to try to stand behind a barrier to get a better view. The one that i stood behind when i got to the ground early on lurched forward when i leaned on it because the terracing was crumbling. There ended up being trouble because the police locked people out when the away section was nowhere near full; with hindsight, they probably couldn't allow it to get more than about 75% full because there was a real danger it'd collapse. Of course the police didn't bother explaining that to people, just a blunt "you can't come in, it's full", so a load of our fans went in the home end and it kicked off when we scored. And some fans got thrown out of the away end for arguing with the stewards/police for not letting people in.
That's why i don't think the lessons of Hillsborough have been fully learnt - everyone's got stories, even now, of being treated like thugs who need to be contained.

 

[embree]

Which bit of Bloomfield Road was it and when? Pure trainspotter stuff on my part tbh - my experience was in around 1998ish, they'd given us the northern end of the old West Terrace (along the side) and it was full a fair while before kick off with more and more away fans streaming in. A chant went up of 'let us out' and to their credit they held the new arrivals back, closed the turnstiles while opening up the Kop (adjacent, behind the goal) to us. Everyone happy but it was scary for a good ten minutes or so before they twigged what was going on. They obviously only expected a couple of hundred away fans and around 1500 showed up

 

[ericjarvis]

Just imagine what the reaction would have been if it hadn't been Liverpool fans at Hillsborough, but England rugby fans at Twickenham. A lot of the official reaction at the time shows a HUGE class bias.

 

[Athos]

Some great posts. Particularly Embree and Rosa.

And fair play to Stoat Boy for the apology.

 

[embree]

Just imagine what the reaction would have been if it hadn't been Liverpool fans at Hillsborough, but England rugby fans at Twickenham. A lot of the official reaction at the time shows a HUGE class bias.

Sadly I think the reactions from a lot of football fans even up to the present day show a huge anti-Scouse bias

 

[rosa]

Which bit of Bloomfield Road was it and when? Pure trainspotter stuff on my part tbh - my experience was in around 1998ish, they'd given us the northern end of the old West Terrace (along the side) and it was full a fair while before kick off with more and more away fans streaming in. A chant went up of 'let us out' and to their credit they held the new arrivals back, closed the turnstiles while opening up the Kop (adjacent, behind the goal) to us. Everyone happy but it was scary for a good ten minutes or so before they twigged what was going on. They obviously only expected a couple of hundred away fans and around 1500 showed up

It was the stand behind the goal, i guess that must have been the Kop. They only opened the upper section and didn't allocate us any other space. This was in September 1997, so around the same time. They had no excuse for not expecting a big crowd - it was a Lancashire derby (i'm an Oldham fan), it was still just within the summer season so a lot of people were making a weekend of it, and it was back in the days when we got bigger crowds than Blackpool. It was a total fuck-up and their attitude seemed to be that we were a bit of an inconvenience.

 

[embree]

Yeah, that was the Kop. The terrace was falling to pieces at the time (so was half of Bloomfield Road) and it always amazed me they could still get a safety certificate for it. The section probably was full according to the safety cert, I doubt they could actually 'fill' it given the crash barriers etc wouldn't have been able to cope with a genuinely packed terrace.

Lots of massive terraces around then had greatly reduced capacities. Seem to remember Wrexham's huge Kop (which is still there) had a much smaller capacity than its actual physical size because of the small number of toilets at that end of the ground

 

[mattie]

Just imagine what the reaction would have been if it hadn't been Liverpool fans at Hillsborough, but England rugby fans at Twickenham. A lot of the official reaction at the time shows a HUGE class bias.

I've wondered this. It's definitely the case that the two sports are hugely differently policed, of course that's partly because rugby doesn't have the small sections of twats, but the problem is that the police treat all football fans like they were part of this said small section of twats.

I think the real disgrace of Hillsborough is that the authorities thought covering arse was more important than finding out what happened, both to give some shred of dignity to hundreds of bereaved families and so it could be prevented from happening again.

The initial police over/under/idiotic reaction was perhaps a function of the ridiculous attitudes the police held to football fans in general, and so there is some way to understand how events unfolded as they did (although that's not to excuse it), the aftermath and cover-up were simply disgusting - almost treating the dead and the families of the dead as inconveniences to promotion. And being allowed to get away with it. Utterly, totally unacceptable.

 

[Fedayn]

Well I am big and ugly enough to admit that from reading many of the posts on here it is obvious that my own perceptions of what happened that day have been largely wrong. I guess I bought into this idea that ticketless fans were far more of a contributing factor than they were.

Actually fuck it. I had written a load more stuff about how we should all still take a little of the blame ourselves because of how, and to some extent still, footballing culture is but the truth is that I was wrong with what I had been implying and my apologies for that.

Nice one SB.

As for bromleys comments, well I wonder if he'd be happy with people repeating lies about the Ibrox Disaster?

I'm an Evertonian, I was at Villa Park that day watching Everton beat Norwich City 1-0... I was with a mate who's younger brother-rogue gene deffo-is a Liverpool fan. This was pre mobile phomnes, pre internet, pre all that.... The fear and worry on his face i'll never forget. He was lucky, his wee brother was fine, he was in th corner of the Leppings Lane stand....

 

[rosa]

I'm an Evertonian, I was at Villa Park that day watching Everton beat Norwich City 1-0... I was with a mate who's younger brother-rogue gene deffo-is a Liverpool fan. This was pre mobile phomnes, pre internet, pre all that.... The fear and worry on his face i'll never forget. He was lucky, his wee brother was fine, he was in th corner of the Leppings Lane stand....

My sister was at Villa Park, she says the policing there was pretty shit as well and there was a bit of a crush outside the ground. Ironically it was her that my parents were worried about - she was 17 and it was her first semi-final. She didn't even bother trying to phone home to see if we'd heard from my brother, the queues for the public phones were that bad that they decided they'd be better off just getting home as quickly as possible. She had a radio and she said it was awful having to tell people what was going on, people thought that the reports were exaggerated and it couldn't be as bad as people were saying.

 

[bromley]

As for bromleys comments, well I wonder if he'd be happy with people repeating lies about the Ibrox Disaster?

That disaster occurred in a different era before hooliganism was a major issue. They're aren't many lies about either disaster although the second one was caused by a slip on the stairwell and not fans rushing back in to see a last minute goal.

I wasn't implying that it was the fans who were the sole cause for the disaster.

 

[butchersapron]

You were 5 when it happened - is that right? So you didn't have any experience of attending matches in an era when the fans were treated like human sewage, of how police actions and shit stadiums left us in dangerous situations over and over? What exactly are you basing your claim of any blame attaching to the fans at all on - given that none of the investigations have come to that conclusion?

 

[Fedayn]

That disaster occurred in a different era before hooliganism was a major issue. They're aren't many lies about either disaster although the second one was caused by a slip on the stairwell and not fans rushing back in to see a last minute goal.

I wasn't implying that it was the fans who were the sole cause for the disaster.

The point is that you, nor I, would like lies told about the Ibrox Disaster. I work with the sone of a survivor... As do many people.

Well what are you implying then?

 

[embree]

That disaster occurred in a different era before hooliganism was a major issue. They're aren't many lies about either disaster although the second one was caused by a slip on the stairwell and not fans rushing back in to see a last minute goal.

I wasn't implying that it was the fans who were the sole cause for the disaster.

Got anything to say about anything that was posted in response to your nonsense previously in the thread?

 

[bromley]

Yes I do have questions to ask, but after lies that have been written about innocent football fans who died in the disaster it's best to keep quiet and to listen to what you lot have to say.

One question would be where was the away stand in 1989? Sheffield Wednesday were in the first division with Liverpool that season.

 

[embree]

Same end, Leppings Lane

 

[Streathamite]

Try telling that to a sub-human cunt like stoat boy, or a piece of dogshit like bromley, and they'll still pipe up with the same refrain. Shame on them.

tbh, here i think they are just colossally ignorant, ill-informed and misguided

 

[rosa]

One question would be where was the away stand in 1989? Sheffield Wednesday were in the first division with Liverpool that season.

As embree says, the Leppings Lane end, which had a significantly smaller capacity than the home end (the Kop). Liverpool were allocated the smaller end, despite having a higher average home gate than Forest, because it was nearer to the route from Liverpool, and the FA and the police's priority was to keep the two sets of fans segregated at all costs.

 

[bromley]

As embree says, the Leppings Lane end, which had a significantly smaller capacity than the home end (the Kop). Liverpool were allocated the smaller end, despite having a higher average home gate than Forest, because it was nearer to the route from Liverpool, and the FA and the police's priority was to keep the two sets of fans segregated at all costs.

In the previous semi-final Forest had the Leppings Lane end, so it was unfair to give them the smaller allocation again.

 

[embree]

I've never been sure what that's got to do with anything to be honest

 

[Plumdaff]

No Liverpool had the Leppings Lane end at both, and had complained on both occasions. There were significant differences to the policing the year before - there had been fences on the approach to the gates limiting the crush at that point, and also there had been police officers inside stopping people entering the central pens when they were full in 1988.

 

[embree]

For some reason I'd forgotten that but of course you're right - people who used the terrace in both years reported very different experiences

 

[bigbry]

As embree says, the Leppings Lane end, which had a significantly smaller capacity than the home end (the Kop). Liverpool were allocated the smaller end, despite having a higher average home gate than Forest, because it was nearer to the route from Liverpool, and the FA and the police's priority was to keep the two sets of fans segregated at all costs.

I was at the Coventry - Leeds semi at Hillsborough two years before the Hillsborough disaster and Coventry got the Kop end while Leeds (with more regular fans) got the Leppings Lane End just because Leppings Lane is to the north of the ground and Leeds is north of Sheffield. This disaster could have happened anytime and, if we're honest, almost anywhere.

 

[dessiato]

Every year I read about this disaster, every year the stories cause me to wonder at the horror. Every year I wonder when a final chapter will be written. Sadly, I don't think it ever will, those responsible should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

Big up to SB for the apology.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Well I am big and ugly enough to admit that from reading many of the posts on here it is obvious that my own perceptions of what happened that day have been largely wrong. I guess I bought into this idea that ticketless fans were far more of a contributing factor than they were.

Actually fuck it. I had written a load more stuff about how we should all still take a little of the blame ourselves because of how, and to some extent still, footballing culture is but the truth is that I was wrong with what I had been implying and my apologies for that.

Fair enough. I retract my sub-human scum comment. Got a bit annoyed.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Well I am big and ugly enough to admit that from reading many of the posts on here it is obvious that my own perceptions of what happened that day have been largely wrong. I guess I bought into this idea that ticketless fans were far more of a contributing factor than they were.

Actually fuck it. I had written a load more stuff about how we should all still take a little of the blame ourselves because of how, and to some extent still, footballing culture is but the truth is that I was wrong with what I had been implying and my apologies for that.

Good for you.