Why the lib-dems are shit

[fractionMan]

I can't tell them apart tbh

 

[Louis MacNeice]

You are aware the NO campaign is backed by neo-liberals though? How is voting NO going to oppose their politics? It's run by Matthew Elliot FFS.

And of course I'll be opposing AV on exactly the same grounds as Matthew Elliot!

However, Mr Kenny stressed that the GMB – which gave £1.4m to Labour last year – would not be forming an alliance across the political divide. "We are not going to get into bed with everybody who opposes a change in the voting system," Mr Kenny said.​

You're supporting a 'timid reform' for party political advantage.

Louis MacNeice

 

[frogwoman]

and the Green party.

You keep saying this as though it matters. I don't support the gp, and im sure some people in it will vote for, others will vote against - people will have a range of different views. I don't know why the green party leadership saying they support something matters so much.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I know you'd rather help the Tories and punish the Lib Dems - Fair enough if you prefer revenge over principle then go for it.

What principle? It won't guarantee proportionality. I won't 'won't transform politics, and it won't open up the House of Commons to diverse voices'. Clegg is hoping the 'timid reform' will entrench Lib Dem power at Westminster; it's ort of a principle but not much of one.

Louis MacNeice

 

[moon23]

And of course I'll be opposing AV on exactly the same grounds as Matthew Elliot!

However, Mr Kenny stressed that the GMB – which gave £1.4m to Labour last year – would not be forming an alliance across the political divide. "We are not going to get into bed with everybody who opposes a change in the voting system," Mr Kenny said.​

You're supporting a 'timid reform' for party political advantage.

Louis MacNeice

Not at all, it gives people more choice. I prefered AV to FPTP long before I even joined the Liberal Democrats. GMB are looking after their own interests too.

 

[moon23]

You keep saying this as though it matters. I don't support the gp, and im sure some people in it will vote for, others will vote against - people will have a range of different views. I don't know why the green party leadership saying they support something matters so much.

I point it out because the AV vote is being painted as something the Lib Dems want, whilst that's true Lib Dems do want this reform it's not a single-party campaign. There are lot's of people all across the political spectrum who prefer AV to FPTP.

 

[frogwoman]

So what? Lots of people like a thing so I should like it as well otherwise I'm a tory?

 

[ymu]

You are aware the NO campaign is backed by neo-liberals though? How is voting NO going to oppose their politics? It's run by Matthew Elliot FFS.

My enemy's enemy is not my friend.

Get some politics, ffs!

 

[stethoscope]

Not at all, it gives people more choice. I prefered AV to FPTP long before I even joined the Liberal Democrats. GMB are looking after their own interests too.

Really? I seem to recall you always talking about how important getting PR was and not mentioning AV?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Not at all, it gives people more choice. I prefered AV to FPTP long before I even joined the Liberal Democrats. GMB are looking after their own interests too.

You were saying that I and anybody else voting no was supporting Matthew Elliot and the Tax Payers Alliance; I was pointing out that wasn't the case.

The fact that you've liked AV for ages is neither here nor there; there is no time limit on being wrong.

However, I will take back my accusation that you're supporting a 'timid reform' for party political advantage; the truth is you're just a useful idiot.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Kaka Tim]

I can understand this bit - we hate the Tories therefore we hate the Lib Dems for going into Coalition with them. I can't understand that it therefore follows that we should vote along Tory lines against the AV referendum to smite the Lib Dems for going along with the Tories.

Sorry that just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Becasue a vote for AV will now further entrench the lib dem/tory neo-liberal bloc whilst doing nothing to actually open up and diversify politics - good luck selling that one.

 

[ymu]

and the Green party.

And the vested interests of another small party with no hope of power under FPTP should influence us how, exactly?

 

[elbows]

Id be more interested in doing something radical with the House of Lords to be honest.

 

[moon23]

My enemy's enemy is not my friend.

Get some politics, ffs!

I only posted that in response to those who are trying to turn the AV referendum into some anti neo-liberal/LD vote. I have politics which are based on the merits of AV over FPTP.

 

[moon23]

And the vested interests of another small party with no hope of power under FPTP should influence us how, exactly?

It's not all about vested interests, this cynicism is corrosive.

 

[ymu]

Not at all, it gives people more choice. I prefered AV to FPTP long before I even joined the Liberal Democrats. GMB are looking after their own interests too.

More illusion of choice, I think you meant to say. Yay, let's lull people into thinking they have democracy for a few more decades yet. That'll hasten the development of real democracy.

 

[frogwoman]

moon i actually could support pr - but why not have real PR and not this pathetic watered down version?

 

[ymu]

I only posted that in response to those who are trying to turn the AV referendum into some anti neo-liberal/LD vote. I have politics which are based on the merits of AV over FPTP.

But both sides are being promoted by neo-liberal arseholes. Both sides are also being promoted by sections of the left. Why do you think it's a valid point to make? It's not. It's drivel.

 

[frogwoman]

It's not all about vested interests, this cynicism is corrosive.

What's cynical in pointing out that a small party with one MP could support a policy which increased their representation in parliament (or could do?)

 

[moon23]

Becasue a vote for AV will now further entrench the lib dem/tory neo-liberal bloc whilst doing nothing to actually open up and diversify politics - good luck selling that one.

I care about whether a voting system will be more representative, or whether it will better hold MPs to account, not so much how it might or might not affect the electoral outcome in terms of a some bloc of politics. If I did then I’d be very much against PR on the basis that it would result in perpetual centre-right coalitions.

 

[moon23]

What's cynical in pointing out that a small party with one MP could support a policy which increased their representation in parliament (or could do?)

It assumes they only care about increasing their number of MPs rather than the issues at hand.

 

[moon23]

But both sides are being promoted by neo-liberal arseholes. Both sides are also being promoted by sections of the left. Why do you think it's a valid point to make? It's not. It's drivel.

That's kind of the point of my post, to show that voting against AV isn't some anti neo-liberal vote.

 

[frogwoman]

Perhaps they care about both? Because the more MPs they have, the more impact their policies will potentially have and governments will have to keep them on side to get them to vote for or against stuff. Nothing necessarily "cynical" in that at all.

 

[Citizen66]

define leftie and then devise an argument as to why i'm not one.

Pro working class and won't polish the Tories shoes in exchange for a sniff of the levers of power.

 

[i_got_poison]

I_got_poison, if you call yourself a leftie, then what in particular makes you one? don't you see a contradiction between the "left's" ideals and the lib dems'? i would ask both of you the same question i asked before - if you get involved with left wing parties and groups then there must have been something which made you get involved and how their ideas made sense on some level. that's why people - a lot of people - voted for the lib dems, as they thought they were a progressive party and stood up for ordinary people against the war etc. as we know that wasn't reality, but that's what got a lot of people involved in and voting for them. so i'd ask both of you the same thing - you must have thought that that "leftie" stuff made sense on some level, no? and why has this changed for you?

social and judicial equality are the primary reasons for my liberal\socialist views. but i hold these views in the full knowledge the world is full of inequality.
david cameron isn't a total fool, he realises having the liberal democrats on board will help the image of his party, maybe even help detoxify some elements within it.
the LD's policy successes (to date) have been overlooked because a majority of the left, still can't countenance the idea of the coalition.

this partly puts me off the current left wing debate. there appears to be no rationale behind the arguments, just an inherent disgust for any coalition policy.

 

[frogwoman]

socialist????

are you kidding me ??? how is 25-40% cuts, mass privatisations, and punishing the poorest people in society "socialism"? How is cutting off university access for everyone except the very rich "socialism"? It is not - how can you even say that


you stabbed your core support in the back in such a shameless, despicable manner, that will have repercussions across the public sector and across the country. if you have any integrity or any principles left - LEAVE

 

[fractionMan]

that is either a genius troll or the most idiotic thing I've read in quite a while

 

[frogwoman]

the LD's policy success (to date) have been overlooked because a majority of the left, still can't countenance the idea of the coalition.

What policy success? The policy where they were going to scrap tuition fees you mean ??

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

david cameron isn't a total fool, he realises having the liberal democrats on board will help the image of his party, maybe even help detoxify some elements within it.

What does this mean, and why do you think it?

 

[ymu]

That's kind of the point of my post, to show that voting against AV isn't some anti neo-liberal vote.

Not if you think in terms of parties, no. We're not all robotic tribalists, remember?