Why the lib-dems are shit

[ymu]

So you think it's more a question of what the wider political outcomes and considerations are then simply a matter of whether AV or FPTP is better? I'm just trying to boil this argument we are having down.

It seems to me there is on the one hand the question about the actual referendum, what is best AV vs FPTP and another question about what is the best tactical voting outcome to deliver your preferred political outcomes.

Yes, of course that's what I think. If you think AV is more democratic than FPTP, that's one thing. But this referendum is about whether we think AV will give us more democracy than FPTP. Those are very different questions.

 

[moon23]

i, personally would get rid of trident in a heartbeat, but the last government dithered on the proposal and this administration has flat out refused to scrap it.
the wars are harder to extricate ourselves from. gordon brown did the right thing in getting us out of iraq, but was unwilling to do so in afganistan.
cameron is desperate to end the war there but would lose too much political capital, hence his speech on a withdrawl timetable and hand of over afgani provinces to american\coalition
forces.

If there was an outright Lib Dem Government we'd definitely be scrapping Trident, and further increasing Capital Gains Tax - that sort of financial measure would make scrapping tuition fees affordable.

 

[fractionMan]

yeah, right

 

[i_got_poison]

It's as much about the political outcomes as anything else, and most people on here don't want to give you lot an endorsement of anything. You still havent answered btw - why not real PR and not this pathetic imitation of it?

AV gives the lib dems a platform to achieving PR. PR is a thorny issue as it opens the door to, too many, unsavoury far right parties (and the like).

 

[fractionMan]

what makes you think that?

 

[moon23]

Yes, of course that's what I think. If you think AV is more democratic than FPTP, that's one thing. But this referendum is about whether we think AV will give us more democracy than FPTP. Those are very different questions.

Yes I think it's more democratic to give people more choice to rank candidates in order, rather than just vote for one. I also argue that STV is even more democratic as it gives a voice in parliament for all those people who vote for a party that is never big enough to win outright in one consistency.

In terms of outcomes STV would be a disaster for the centre-left in this country though.

 

[moon23]

yeah, right

Yes, but sadly there's a coalition with the Tories, where we stopped them cutting inheritance tax for the rich, and kept income tax breaks for the lowest earners.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In terms of outcomes STV would be a disaster for the centre-left in this country though.

If, by centre-left, you mean the libdems/labour, why would this be?

 

[binka]

PR is a thorny issue as it opens the door to, too many, unsavoury far right parties (and the like).

agreed. the fewer libdems in parliament the better

 

[fractionMan]

Yes, but sadly there's a coalition with the Tories, where we stopped them cutting inheritance tax for the rich, and kept income tax breaks for the lowest earners.

forgive me for not believing a word in the libdem manefesto.

 

[i_got_poison]

Yes, but sadly there's a coalition with the Tories, where we stopped them cutting inheritance tax for the rich, and kept income tax breaks for the lowest earners.

they won't get credit for this

 

[elbows]

Yes, but sadly there's a coalition with the Tories, where we stopped them cutting inheritance tax for the rich, and kept income tax breaks for the lowest earners.

The inheritance tax cuts not happening is one of the only things Im happy about this year.

However I question how much this was really down to the Lib Dems - if anything I think Cameron & Co were actually happy to have a way out of implementing this policy, because it would go down especially badly at a time where they are parping on about fairness. Lib Dems gave them a convenient getout.

 

[frogwoman]

AV gives the lib dems a platform to achieving PR. PR is a thorny issue as it opens the door to, too many, unsavoury far right parties (and the like).

But your main thing, for all these years, why people voted for you, was the PR thing.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No - Im asking (*genuine question*) what logic leads you to line up with virtually 100% of Tory MPs against left unions and MPs? You think I'm only saying this because I'm paid to? WRONG I work on this campaign because I happen to believe that it is worthwhile.

First you need ask yourself whose interests are served by a "yes" vote. IMO there's a spectrum from the electorate (who gain a fraction more "choice" over their representative) to the political professionals (who will feel re-validated in their roles as pseudo-democratic cheerleaders for neo-liberalism).

More importantly a non-vote (as opposed to a "No" vote) at least sends a message that we, the electorate, aren't buying into their re-arrangement of the deck-chairs.

 

[frogwoman]

agreed. the fewer libdems in parliament the better

Innit

 

[moon23]

If, by centre-left, you mean the libdems/labour, why would this be?

I'm not just talking about parites, in terms of the nations general political alignment. Labour have shifted to the right, the Lib Dems have formed a coaltion with the Tories.

 

[binka]

they won't get credit for this

turns out the country is delighted with the income tax break for low earners, however since everyone's going to be unemployed in about 6 months time it seems something of a hollow victory.

 

[moon23]

Innit

So you would oppose STV on the basis of it meaning more Lib Dem MPs as well?

 

[trevhagl]

Nowhere. I am against all cuts. Reduce the defecit by collecting unpaid taxes ffs - that would get rid of £120bn of it.

it is strange in these times of cuts that no one in the media (Or Labour for that matter)has been brave enough to put that solution to them

 

[frogwoman]

I would vote BNP to keep out the lib dems* -

*i wouldn't really, but still

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not just talking about parites, in terms of the nations general political alignment. Labour have shifted to the right, the Lib Dems have formed a coaltion with the Tories.

But that has happened with fptp in place.

 

[moon23]

First you need ask yourself whose interests are served by a "yes" vote. IMO there's a spectrum from the electorate (who gain a fraction more "choice" over their representative) to the political professionals (who will feel re-validated in their roles as pseudo-democratic cheerleaders for neo-liberalism).

More importantly a non-vote (as opposed to a "No" vote) at least sends a message that we, the electorate, aren't buying into their re-arrangement of the deck-chairs.

Do you think the Murdoch press will A) Portray a 'No' vote as a message the electorate aren't buying into their re-arrangement of the deck-chairs or B) An endorsement for the status quo from which they benefit.

Only in small left wing cliques a 'NO' vote will be seen as smiting the 'sell out' Lib Dems and staying true to the ideology of revolutionary reform.

 

[moon23]

But that has happened with fptp in place.

Yes becuase electroal systems represent the views of the population, my argument is not that I want a particular electoral system becuase it will generate the political outcomes I desire but rather I want a system that better represents the views of people.

 

[moon23]

I would vote BNP to keep out the lib dems

Disgusting, your politics are twisted.

 

[frogwoman]

Do you think the Murdoch press will A) Portray a 'No' vote as a message the electorate aren't buying into their re-arrangement of the deck-chairs or B) An endorsement for the status quo from which they benefit.

Only in small left wing cliques a 'NO' vote will be seen as smiting the 'sell out' Lib Dems and staying true to the ideology of revolutionary reform.

For all these years though you've been going on about how you want PR and now it turns out you don't.

 

[elbows]

A small sample of messages on the lib dems facebook wall:

I've been a Liberal/LibDem for 27 years. I was a councillor for 20 years, but if we go back on the pledge we gave at the election on student fees, that could be the end for me.

I tore up my membership today I have tried to understand decisions made so far and policy shifts but this is a step too far...the students of this country have been let down what happened to the Lib Dem back bone?

In the words of Orwell: "the Liberals are power worshippers without power!"
That is why they are now powerhungry harlots selling themselves for the sake of power even if it means lurching to the very Right and betraying all their voters. The Conservative Party are using the Liberal Democrats. I hope they make an electoral pact, that will be the perfect match Tories and toffs: Cameron, Clegg and Osborne - together forever!

So today you die as a party, there is no come back even AV cant save you now. TORY LAP DOGS TO A MAN.

There's been a lot of talk today about Lib Dem prinicples and pledges and I now think we can answer definitively the question:
What DO the Liberal Democrats stand for?
- Dave Cameron entering the room!

 

[frogwoman]

Disgusting, your politics are twisted.

You don't actually think I was serious do you? Have a think about what I might have been trying to say with that post.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes becuase electroal systems represent the views of the population, my argument is not that I want a particular electoral system becuase it will generate the political outcomes I desire but rather I want a system that better represents the views of people.

You're confusing me now. Is FPTP fair or not fair? If it is unfair, which point of view is underrepresented by it?

 

[moon23]

For all these years though you've been going on about how you want PR and now it turns out you don't.

I want PR, I’m just pointing out it won't bring about some amazing leftie government that a lot of people think. The European elections are proportional, and you have a massive UKIP vote. You'd probably find all those Daily Mail readers who would love to vote UKIP but instead settle with what they consider to be a left-leaning Cameron type of Conservatism would have their say.

 

[moon23]

You don't actually think I was serious do you? Have a think about what I might have been trying to say with that post.

I hope you were just joking phew!