Why the lib-dems are shit

[frogwoman]

funny, but i could've sworn there was no smilie to indicate you were joking.

a graduation tax or raising the cap level on fees doesn't help the liberal cause. but as things stand there's little or no opportunities for graduates to get a jobs paying £21k +
which would trigger their loan repayments. so the argument is a little redundant given the economic circumstances. wouldn't you agree?

It's 15k when you have to start paying it back, not 21k. Given your hatred of Labour I'd have thought you'd be wanting to point that out.

 

[moon23]

It's 15k when you have to start paying it back, not 21k. Given your hatred of Labour I'd have thought you'd be wanting to point that out.

I think he was referring to the proposal to raise it to 21K. That's one good thing, at least students with shit degrees in poorly paid admin jobs won't be having to pay loan re-payments under the new system.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Your talking about cuts in spending over the term of the government that bring spending as a GDP back to around 2006 levels. The reason they are going to be felt in some departments is becuase other areas like oversea aid and the NHS have been protected. They are also over the term of the government so it's about 5% a year.

Also although I disagree with increasing tuition fees, it isn't cutting off access for people as they won't have to pay it back until they earn over £21,000 so you can get a University education safe in the knowledge if you end up on a low income it won't affect you negatively.

Which entirely avoids reference to the reams of research conducted since fees were instituted, that show that the the prospect of debt puts off a disproportionate number of people from poorer backgrounds. Putting fees up does nothing to solve the divide between haves and have-nots, and reinforces that divide.

 

[binka]

Compromise is a big part of politics but unless you have a keen sense of where to draw the line, when not to compromise, what useful politics do you really have? There is no point in the Lib Dems existing if they are just there to make up the numbers when one of the big 2 fall a little short.

its very easy to compromise when you dont stand for anything

 

[ViolentPanda]

Jesus wept Where do you think money comes from? More government spending would stimulate the economy and the prospect of people losing their jobs wouldn't mean that they were cautious about spending anything.

Have pity on them. Neo-liberals have a hard time understanding Keynesian economics.

 

[i_got_poison]

It's 15k when you have to start paying it back, not 21k. Given your hatred of Labour I'd have thought you'd be wanting to point that out.

without checking it, i thought the proposal was £21k.

p.s. i know it's £15k now.

 

[fractionMan]

I'd like to hear how the efforts of others on this thread in reforming our political system are going? Sold many papers recently, hi-jacked many worker struggles for your own political gain?

wtf

 

[elbows]

its very easy to compromise when you dont stand for anything

I quite liked the post someone made on the lib dems facebook page where they said that its now clear what the Lib Dems stand for - Cameron entering the room.

Not that I think the Lib Dems really stand for nothing at all, they do have some values, but ones that fit easily within the narrow mainstream political spectrum of these times. Their core values have been obscured somewhat by their propaganda and attempts to appeal to people who would vote for either Tory or Lib Dem, depending on the consituency they are fighing an election in, but overall their name, Liberal Democrat, does match what they believe in. The worst that liberal thinking and democracy has to offer, and yellow.

 

[binka]

wtf

i think he means that doing something, anything is better than doing nothing.

what have you done today fractionman if that is your real name? well you have no right to criticise

 

[ViolentPanda]

AV gives the lib dems a platform to achieving PR.

And if the Lib-Dems decide that AV suits them just fine for the next handful of decaces?

PR is a thorny issue as it opens the door to, too many, unsavoury far right parties (and the like).

If you believe in democracy then you believe in democracy, "unsavoury far right parties" or not. If you believe in democracy then you oppose those parties democratically. Otherwise, why bother? Why not just institute a benign dictatorship?

 

[fractionMan]

i think he means that doing something, anything is better than doing nothing.

what have you done today fractionman if that is your real name? well you have no right to criticise

If I don't vote I can't complain

 

[ViolentPanda]

If, by centre-left, you mean the libdems/labour, why would this be?

More diffused, and possibly issues-based and/or localised voting, so way more people standing on such issues outside of party lines.

 

[frogwoman]

wtf

Innit

 

[elbows]

If you believe in democracy then you believe in democracy, "unsavoury far right parties" or not. If you believe in democracy then you oppose those parties democratically. Otherwise, why bother? Why not just institute a benign dictatorship?

Yep. The furthest I would go to confront this problem is to say that democracy is about far more than the voting system, if we were to have a genuinely democratic system of voting then we would also need a media fit for purpose.

 

[binka]

I quite liked the post someone made on the lib dems facebook page where they said that its now clear what the Lib Dems stand for - Cameron entering the room.

Not that I think the Lib Dems really stand for nothing at all, they do have some values, but ones that fit easily within the narrow mainstream political spectrum of these times. Their core values have been obscured somewhat by their propaganda and attempts to appeal to people who would vote for either Tory or Lib Dem, depending on the consituency they are fighing an election in, but overall their name, Liberal Democrat, does match what they believe in. The worst that liberal thinking and democracy has to offer, and yellow.

yeah actually i agree with you, my old dad always calld lib dems yellow tories. they're obviously very comfortable working with the conservatives. its just very amusing that the only issues that made them in anyway different to either of the other parties are immediately up for 'compromise'

 

[i_got_poison]

If you believe in democracy then you believe in democracy, "unsavoury far right parties" or not. If you believe in democracy then you oppose those parties democratically. Otherwise, why bother? Why not just institute a benign dictatorship?

when i'm world leader....

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do you think the Murdoch press will A) Portray a 'No' vote as a message the electorate aren't buying into their re-arrangement of the deck-chairs or B) An endorsement for the status quo from which they benefit.

Only in small left wing cliques a 'NO' vote will be seen as smiting the 'sell out' Lib Dems and staying true to the ideology of revolutionary reform.

Read my post again. I was not talking about a "no" vote.

 

[frogwoman]

I'd like to hear how the efforts of others on this thread in reforming our political system are going? Sold many papers recently, hi-jacked many worker struggles for your own political gain?

lol, we're not doing badly in the paper selling dept as it goes - better than your lot would if you went on the streets and, you know, talked and listened to people

do you actually think anyone's ever gonna vote for you again?

 

[yield]

i think he means that doing something, anything is better than doing nothing.

Not necessarily.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'd like to hear how the efforts of others on this thread in reforming our political system are going? Sold many papers recently, hi-jacked many worker struggles for your own political gain?

Re-arranging political deck-chairs is "reformism", not reform itself.

 

[ymu]

I'd like to hear how the efforts of others on this thread in reforming our political system are going? Sold many papers recently, hi-jacked many worker struggles for your own political gain?

So now we're all swappies?

It's so very easy to tell when even you know you've run out of arguments. Truly pathetic.

 

[frogwoman]

Swappies, tories and racists

 

[littlebabyjesus]

?

 

[elbows]

yeah actually i agree with you, my old dad always calld lib dems yellow tories. they're obviously very comfortable working with the conservatives. its just very amusing that the only issues that made them in anyway different to either of the other parties are immediately up for 'compromise'

Well no doubt some of the confusion that made suckers out of the people who voted Lib Dems for chage stems from whats been happening to the image of Labour and the Tories. The old labour party would never have had a reason to be born if the lib dems were lefty in the way some imagined. If Labour had always had the values of New Labour it would have had no reason to be born because the liberals would have done that job just fine. And Camerons 'detoxification of the tory nasty party image' moves the tories into a position that smells like classic liberal stuff, at least in terms of propaganda. Never mind, all this centre ground wank should start to evaporate once the economic woe kicks in and the mainstream political spectrum loses its narrow buffers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Because there was no fucking way the Tories or Labour would have allowed a referendum on PR vs FPTP to take place so instead you have a compromise of AV vs FPTP.

So, in effect, the Lib-Dem position is to settle for eating a shit sandwich rather than a cheese sandwich because at least it's still a sandwich?

What’s great is it’s actually going to happen and people are going to get the first vote on a referendum issue since the 70s.

That's not "great", it's profoundly sad.

 

[ViolentPanda]

when i'm world leader....

...Satan will be ice-skating around his kingdom.

 

[kyser_soze]

Because there was no fucking way the Tories or Labour would have allowed a referendum on PR vs FPTP to take place so instead you have a compromise of AV vs FPTP

This despite a referendum on AV was actually a LP manifesto pledge, with Gordo saying he'd had a 'conversion' to it, just in time for the election?

 

[frogwoman]

Reading this sneering "how many papers have you sold today" / "politics is about compromise" bullshit (while simultaneously calling everyone who disagrees with you a tory and blaming everything on the tories) makes me feel sick tbh. It's as though you lot are actually proud of having no principles whatsoever - even insulting your coalition partners at every opportunity yet hiding behind them every time you do something unpopular.

 

[articul8]

Some of 'we' surely? Unless you're trying to claim that it is impossible to oppose the coalition and AV, which would be both intellectually dishonest and persoanlly insulting.

Opposing the coalition and AV is more logical from a right wing Tory point of view than a left one. OF course it's possible for the left to argue against both. But it is self deafeating as it makes a Tory majority more likely and reinforces the armlock that Labour has over the left (but in an insufficient number of heartland seats that make it hard for it to be in government. You'd delight the big C and small C conservatives on right and left.

 

[London_Calling]

I don't think this point has been made (at least not that I've seen) but I think it's still perfectly legit to pay your Uni fees up front i.e. incur no debt and therefore no interest and zero debt.

Which would obviously be a major factor in the middle class vs. working class 'fairness' issue.

Anyone know the factual SP on paying fees up front?