Why the lib-dems are shit

[i_got_poison]

I would vote BNP to keep out the lib dems

which means you'd have no problem voting conservative.

under the red scarf is a blue one.

 

[binka]

its intriguing the way libdemmers are getting so worked up about the vote for av. ive had a vague interest in politics for about 15 years and in all that time the one thing ive associated with the libdems has been pr. up until 5 months ago i'd never ever heard a single libdem mention av. now they are banging the drum as if its the greatest reform since womens suffrage.

i honestly dont understand how anyone can be an ardent supporter of the libdems; they dont appear to be able to hold any principles.

 

[ymu]

Yes I think it's more democratic to give people more choice to rank candidates in order, rather than just vote for one. I also argue that STV is even more democratic as it gives a voice in parliament for all those people who vote for a party that is never big enough to win outright in one consistency.

In terms of outcomes STV would be a disaster for the centre-left in this country though.

Yeah, I'm not a tribal opportunist either. But at least you've admitted you want a system that you think will destroy the centre-left. No more pretences, eh?

I've already said I don't think electoral reform has any relevance to democracy in the UK at the moment. I am, as it happens, completely neutral on PR. I think it can cause more problems than it solves, and I do not think it is relevant anyway. Could not give a flying fuck. If you responded to what people post, you might have understood that by now. But you don't. You spot a keyword and look up the propaganda line that goes with it.

 

[frogwoman]

I hope you were just joking phew!

Have a think about what I was trying to say with that post.

 

[frogwoman]

which means you'd have no problem voting conservative.

under the red scarf is a blue one.

lol, you are clueless.

 

[ymu]

turns out the country is delighted with the income tax break for low earners, however since everyone's going to be unemployed in about 6 months time it seems something of a hollow victory.

They're not so impressed that the effect of it is entirely reversed by the rise in VAT though (another Lib Dem manifesto promise broken), causing the poorest to take the biggest share of the pain, even before you factor in the horrific details decided since the emergency budget.

 

[moon23]

Yeah, I'm not a tribal opportunist either. But at least you've admitted you want a system that you think will destroy the centre-left. No more pretences, eh?

I've already said I don't think electoral reform has any relevance to democracy in the UK at the moment. I am, as it happens, completely neutral on PR. I think it can cause more problems than it solves, and I do not think it is relevant anyway. Could not give a flying fuck. If you responded to what people post, you might have understood that by now. But you don't. You spot a keyword and look up the propaganda line that goes with it.

I don't want an electoral system because I think it will do X or Y I want a system that best represents the views of the electorate. If you bothered to read what I had said you would have got that point, so quite how you can extrapolate I want to destroy the centre-left is beyond me.

So you position is you want to vote against AV because you think it would hurt the Lib Dems, and don’t care about the merits of any system over another?

 

[i_got_poison]

lol, you are clueless.

you got some nerve tory girl.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's going to change it by ensuring MPs have to gain over 50% support which will mean they have to work harder to keep that support rather than rely on having a strong core vote.

It will make that difference in only a marginal number of constituencies that are already marginal under our current system. AV is a chimera. It's merely "more of the same, with a few bits of ornament".

 

[moon23]

They're not so impressed that the effect of it is entirely reversed by the rise in VAT though (another Lib Dem manifesto promise broken), causing the poorest to take the biggest share of the pain, even before you factor in the horrific details decided since the emergency budget.

The Coalition is made up of 307 Conservative MPs & 57 Lib Dem MPs what makes you think that those 57 Lib Dem MPs should be able to deliver their entire manifesto? To portray everything the Coalition does that goes against Lib Dem manifesto as a broken promise is to show an utter political immaturity that is unable to grasp the concept of coalition politics or compromise.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They don't want to vote for it cos it's a shit 'compromise' and you know it.

In fact it isn't a compromise at all. The difference between AV and FPTP is the difference between someone arse-raping you without lube or with. Either way, you still get butt-fucked.

 

[moon23]

I'd like to hear how the efforts of others on this thread in reforming our political system are going? Sold many papers recently, hi-jacked many worker struggles for your own political gain?

 

[trevhagl]

The Coalition is made up of 307 Conservative MPs & 57 Lib Dem MPs what makes you think that those 57 Lib Dem MPs should be able to deliver their entire manifesto? To portray everything the Coalition does that goes against Lib Dem manifesto as a broken promise is to show an utter political immaturity that is unable to grasp the concept of coalition politics or compromise.

from what i can see is -

Lib Dem policies - 1 - some watered down version of PR being considered
Tory Policies - The rest .

so 307 - 57 is not exactly pro rata

 

[frogwoman]

you got some nerve tory girl.

I wouldn't vote BNP, would never fucking dream of such a thing. I was joking. The point I was making was that for all your fucking whining about tribalism, tories, etc, you lot are the most "tribal" of them all, you only think about what will benefit your own party and nothing else, maybe not cooperate with the BNP, but almost everything else. it's very telling that every criticism of the Lib Dems we make you respond with "the tories, the tories, etc etc etc." Do you think that little of your coalition partners?

 

[i_got_poison]

The Coalition is made up of 307 Conservative MPs & 57 Lib Dem MPs what makes you think that those 57 Lib Dem MPs should be able to deliver their entire manifesto? To portray everything the Coalition does that goes against Lib Dem manifesto as a broken promise is to show an utter political immaturity that is unable to grasp the concept of coalition politics or compromise.

exactly

 

[moon23]

In fact it isn't a compromise at all. The difference between AV and FPTP is the difference between someone arse-raping you without lube or with. Either way, you still get butt-fucked.

If you had the choice you would prefer lube though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think it's a great compromise as it's something that could actually happen rather than a pipe dream. Politics is all about compromise and winning practical improvements.

Please elucidate exactly how AV is a "great compromise" between FPTP and a properly proportionally-representative voting system.

 

[trevhagl]

I'd like to hear how the efforts of others on this thread in reforming our political system are going? Sold many papers recently, hi-jacked many worker struggles for your own political gain?

if i left the forum they'd be able to concentrate on changing the world, but as it is , slagging me off is more important. keeps me amused while i have the broken ankle though!

 

[Blagsta]

I want to know in what way i_got_poison considers himself socialist.

 

[ViolentPanda]

improvements. lol.

Pure reformism. Fiddle with what's already on offer, polish it up a bit so it shines, rather than actually (Heaven forfend!) being bold and instituting something new.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Pathetic, you even prepared to praise the Tories.

Except that she hasn't, you halfwit, she has said that the Tories will derive benefit.

 

[elbows]

I'd like to hear how the efforts of others on this thread in reforming our political system are going? Sold many papers recently, hi-jacked many worker struggles for your own political gain?

Reform for reforms sake is worthless.

I dont like the fact my vote is often pretty worthless due to the present system, but theres no way I want the system changed unless its a meaningful and dramatic change. There is so little opportunity to change these sorts of things in this country that I certainly dont want what little appetite for change has been built up to be squandered on shitty compromises.

 

[moon23]

I wouldn't vote BNP, would never fucking dream of such a thing. I was joking. The point I was making was that for all your fucking whining about tribalism, tories, etc, you lot are the most "tribal" of them all, you only think about what will benefit your own party and nothing else, maybe not cooperate with the BNP, but almost everything else. it's very telling that every criticism of the Lib Dems we make you respond with "the tories, the tories, etc etc etc." Do you think that little of your coalition partners?

The Lib Dems find compromise and work with others where they can to achieve some of their policy desires. For instance locally there is a Labour/Liberal Council that has ousted Conservative control. Now from one perspective this could be seen as simply opportunism, the Lib Dems trying to gain power by any means regardless of the principle or politics. However it's really the case that Lib Dems are perhaps more prepared to compromise to get some of their polices through.

This compromise probably comes from being a smaller party in the centre common-ground of both the Conservatives and Labour.

 

[elbows]

Compromise is a big part of politics but unless you have a keen sense of where to draw the line, when not to compromise, what useful politics do you really have? There is no point in the Lib Dems existing if they are just there to make up the numbers when one of the big 2 fall a little short.

 

[i_got_poison]

I wouldn't vote BNP, would never fucking dream of such a thing. I was joking. The point I was making was that for all your fucking whining about tribalism, tories, etc, you lot are the most "tribal" of them all, you only think about what will benefit your own party and nothing else, maybe not cooperate with the BNP, but almost everything else. it's very telling that every criticism of the Lib Dems we make you respond with "the tories, the tories, etc etc etc." Do you think that little of your coalition partners?

funny, but i could've sworn there was no smilie to indicate you were joking.

a graduation tax or raising the cap level on fees doesn't help the liberal cause. but as things stand there's little or no opportunities for graduates to get a jobs paying £21k +
which would trigger their loan repayments. so the argument is a little redundant given the economic circumstances. wouldn't you agree?

 

[moon23]

Please elucidate exactly how AV is a "great compromise" between FPTP and a properly proportionally-representative voting system.

Because there was no fucking way the Tories or Labour would have allowed a referendum on PR vs FPTP to take place so instead you have a compromise of AV vs FPTP. What’s great is it’s actually going to happen and people are going to get the first vote on a referendum issue since the 70s.

 

[elbows]

What’s great is it’s actually going to happen and people are going to get the first vote on a referendum issue since the 70s.

Ive been waiting my whole life for a referendum. Hard to get excited about it when its a choice between 2 shits though.

 

[moon23]

Compromise is a big part of politics but unless you have a keen sense of where to draw the line, when not to compromise, what useful politics do you really have? There is no point in the Lib Dems existing if they are just there to make up the numbers when one of the big 2 fall a little short.

Agreed, but Lib Dems compromise to win certain things. Locally for instance the Tories were just going to cut services how they saw fit, so we are compromising with Labour to form a local Coalition council to consult with residents on where the cuts should go.

Nationally we have compromised on PR, VAT and Tuition fees but won some things in terms of an increase in capital gains tax, an increase in the tax allowance and the student premium. It’s clear the compromises are all about putting some of our manifesto and policy into action.

 

[frogwoman]

funny, but i could've sworn there was no smilie to indicate you were joking.

Yeah, you've outed me, everyone who reads this forum knows I'm a massive racist.

 

[moon23]

Ive been waiting my whole life for a referendum. Hard to get excited about it when its a choice between 2 shits though.

I've never been older enough to vote in a referendum before. I see AV as an improvement on FPTP so it excites me. Perhaps I’m just more pessimistic about what it's realistic to achieve on the reform front so have low expectations.