Why the lib-dems are shit

[articul8]

. For those opposed to that politics, attacking the coalition by voting no to AV seems a wise course of action.

If you're a Daily Telegraph reader pissed off at the coalition and wanting a clear blue Tory majority it would be. Not if you're attacking it from the left.

 

[articul8]

Can't believe the utterly sophistical logic being argued here

1) The Lib Dems are shit (true)
2) The LDs are backing AV (also true)
3) People who hate the LDs would benefit if AV vote was lost (NOT FUCKING TRUE!)

And no of course it won't make parliament into a vehicle of workers democracy - that's not my claim. But does it make it more or less viable for a left alternative to emerge? My bet is that it makes it more likely in the longer term - partly because it could well lead to STV for local government but mostly as Labour won't hold a revolver to smaller parties or independent candidates and tell them not to split the vote. Those who want to stick with FPTP need to outline a strategy for building a credible left alternative under that system, when it has helped to throttle all such attempts for decades.

Actually, Labour will also be able to better disaggregate its support which currently appears in the LD figures due to tactical voting. It will help to stop the LDs posing as "the only ones who can win here" against the Tories - like they don't share a lot in common.

 

[moon23]

lol, we're not doing badly in the paper selling dept as it goes - better than your lot would if you went on the streets and, you know, talked and listened to people

do you actually think anyone's ever gonna vote for you again?

I was on the streets on Saturday doing a Lib Dem street stall.

 

[binka]

I was on the streets on Saturday doing a Lib Dem street stall.

have you no shame?

 

[moon23]

?

Where did you get that picture of Lib Dem tele-canvassing from?

 

[moon23]

have you no shame?

What's shamefull about being out on the street in the local community you represent promoting a public meeting?

 

[i_got_poison]

Reading this sneering "how many papers have you sold today" / "politics is about compromise" bullshit (while simultaneously calling everyone who disagrees with you a tory and blaming everything on the tories) makes me feel sick tbh. It's as though you lot are actually proud of having no principles whatsoever - even insulting your coalition partners at every opportunity yet hiding behind them every time you do something unpopular.

you do look awful nice in your new blue dress. it really brings out your hue

 

[binka]

What's shamefull about being out on the street in the local community you represent promoting a public meeting?

it was a rhetorical question - we all know the answer.

 

[moon23]

Reading this sneering "how many papers have you sold today" / "politics is about compromise" bullshit (while simultaneously calling everyone who disagrees with you a tory and blaming everything on the tories) makes me feel sick tbh. It's as though you lot are actually proud of having no principles whatsoever - even insulting your coalition partners at every opportunity yet hiding behind them every time you do something unpopular.

It was sneering of me the "how many papers have you sold" comment. I just get a bit fed up with all the Lib Dem bashing from the left at the moment, and was lashing back out. I respect anyone who goes out, argues and tries to engage in democratic politics (apart from fascists).

The party does have principles, but I’m also proud of its ability to compromise and find practical solutions to serve and represent local people in the many coalition councils up and down the country. Not everything is the fault of the Conservatives, like any party the Lib Dems make their own mistakes sometimes. I think the tution fee issue is one of those mistakes for instance.

Maybe the AV referundum will turn out to be another mistake, I am surprised to hear so many people from general lefty backgrounds saying they are going to vote NO. That doesn't fill me with much joy about the prospects of any electoral reform happening in my life-time.

 

[fractionMan]

The party does have principles

stop it, you're cracking me up

 

[binka]

stop it, you're cracking me up

stop being mean about the libdems

 

[frogwoman]

I was on the streets on Saturday doing a Lib Dem street stall.

And? What was the response?

Thanks for the reply btw - but I don't think, honestly, that the reason that they change their policies depending on who they're talking to is evidence of "compromise" - i think it's evidence of the leadership not having any shame or principles whatsoever. The massive u-turn on tuition fees is more evidence of this, as are your campaign tactics and literature. I remember when your lot went round my uni and tried to present themselves as a centre-left "studenty" option to get students to vote for them.

I am honestly not trying to be horrible or have a go here I'm just trying to get you to think.

 

[Streathamite]

).
The party does have principles,

ooohh be still my heaving sides. keep em coming, son, keep 'em coming...

Maybe the AV referundum will turn out to be another mistake, I am surprised to hear so many people from general lefty backgrounds saying they are going to vote NO. That doesn't fill me with much joy about the prospects of any electoral reform happening in my life-time

if you had actually grown a collective pair and settled for a real PR referendum, rather than the pale pastiche of one the tories offered and you so limply, desperately accepted, then i for one would have suported it, and I can only presume so would many others

 

[Streathamite]

And? What was the response?

Thanks for the reply btw - but I don't think, honestly, that the reason that they change their policies depending on who they're talking to is evidence of "compromise" - i think it's evidence of the leadership not having any shame or principles whatsoever. The massive u-turn on tuition fees is more evidence of this, as are your campaign tactics and literature. I remember when your lot went round my uni and tried to present themselves as a centre-left "studenty" option to get students to vote for them.

in fact, this is their whole MO; I have watched in stunned, revolted fascination as one previously-sound lib dem I know transformed herself from millie tant to hyacinth bucket, in the two hours it took for her to journey from impoverished inner city constituency to affluent, leafy suburban one.

 

[moon23]

And? What was the response?

Thanks for the reply btw - but I don't think, honestly, that the reason that they change their policies depending on who they're talking to is evidence of "compromise" - i think it's evidence of the leadership not having any shame or principles whatsoever. The massive u-turn on tuition fees is more evidence of this, as are your campaign tactics and literature. I remember when your lot went round my uni and tried to present themselves as a centre-left "studenty" option to get students to vote for them.

I am honestly not trying to be horrible or have a go here I'm just trying to get you to think.

I do think about it, essentially I think the party often campaigns opportunistically and doesn't do enough to explain what the liberal principles are. I’ve seen campaigns built around a Conservative or Labour squeeze message without any reference to principle and I don’t think they are a great tactic. For the same reason I get angry when I see inaccurate bar charts (any I’ve ever designed have been spot on). A lot of that stems from holding the centre ground, the temptation is to only reach to your target group during a campaign.
I think it’s wrong when the party represents itself as either left or right, it should be clear about it’s central position and the fact that it essentially believes in free-markets with a social welfare safety net, international cooperation and a liberal state with minimal government control.

The response from the stall was mixed, it was in a Labour area and we were handing out leaflets on an AV meeting. I did have one person accuse me of destroying the welfare state, and being worse than the Tories. I also had others who hadn’t heard about AV before, so I explained it to them. One old guy said how his generation had ruined the country, but the Coalition was fucked because it’s already unpopular and normally it takes governments a few years to get unpopular. Another person said they didn’t mind the coalition but thought the Lib Dems should be more vocal in standing up against the Conservatives.

It’s a bit different in my area there is a local council coalition with Labour though so some people are happy we are keeping the Tories out of power on the council. One thing that pleases me is the local coalition with Labour is going quite well.

 

[Streathamite]

Which entirely avoids reference to the reams of research conducted since fees were instituted, that show that the the prospect of debt puts off a disproportionate number of people from poorer backgrounds. Putting fees up does nothing to solve the divide between haves and have-nots, and reinforces that divide.

yup; working class families have folk-memory historical horror of debt.

 

[moon23]

in fact, this is their whole MO; I have watched in stunned, revolted fascination as one previously-sound lib dem I know transformed herself from millie tant to hyacinth bucket, in the two hours it took for her to journey from impoverished inner city constituency to affluent, leafy suburban one.

That's odd, I can understand Lib Dems in inner-city areas being different from Lib Dems in leafy suburban ones but was this person actually changing their views?

 

[Streathamite]

I quite liked the post someone made on the lib dems facebook page where they said that its now clear what the Lib Dems stand for - Cameron entering the room.

Not that I think the Lib Dems really stand for nothing at all, they do have some values, but ones that fit easily within the narrow mainstream political spectrum of these times. Their core values have been obscured somewhat by their propaganda and attempts to appeal to people who would vote for either Tory or Lib Dem, depending on the consituency they are fighing an election in, but overall their name, Liberal Democrat, does match what they believe in. The worst that liberal thinking and democracy has to offer, and yellow.

I Would add to this; their used to be a lot of Liberals who belonged to a far more progressive strain of liberalism, one which believed that civil liberties were meaningless without social economy and social and economic justice. Unfortunately, they all left, leaving the field clear for the Orange Book crowd.
I bet these are people who nevertheless voted LD at the last election (or GREen) and are now watching in utter horror.

 

[binka]

if you had actually grown a collective pair and settled for a real PR referendum, rather than the pale pastiche of one the tories offered and you so limply, desperately accepted, then i for one would have suported it, and I can only presume so would many others

thats the funny thing. just after the election when cameron made that desperate televised plea to the libdems it was quite obvious they could have got a vote on pr out of the tories. but no they settle for an av vote they are going to lose.

 

[Streathamite]

That's odd, I can understand Lib Dems in inner-city areas being different from Lib Dems in leafy suburban ones but was this person actually changing their views?

she was changing not just the way shde communicated, but the entire message; from trendy left pitch to one nation tory, in essence.
And, no, it's not odd; you're a party of cynical, opportunistic, political shapeshifters. It's in your DNA.

 

[binka]

That's odd, I can understand Lib Dems in inner-city areas being different from Lib Dems in leafy suburban ones but was this person actually changing their views?

you find it odd that a libdem changes their views? have you never changed yours?

 

[moon23]

you find it odd that a libdem changes their views? have you never changed yours?

Most people's views change over time on issues, not quite so rapidly as as Strethamite suggests. I can understand changing the angle of your pitch to appeal to a different type of person though.

 

[frogwoman]

I do think about it, essentially I think the party often campaigns opportunistically and doesn't do enough to explain what the liberal principles are. I’ve seen campaigns built around a Conservative or Labour squeeze message without any reference to principle and I don’t think they are a great tactic. For the same reason I get angry when I see inaccurate bar charts (any I’ve ever designed have been spot on). A lot of that stems from holding the centre ground, the temptation is to only reach to your target group during a campaign.

So why not put your actual views rather than changing them according to what demographic you're talking to? Virtually all your campaigning is like this actually, highly personalised and attacking individuals rather than having anything to say, and chnaging your views depending on who you talk to.

I think it’s wrong when the party represents itself as either left or right, it should be clear about it’s central position and the fact that it essentially believes in free-markets with a social welfare safety net, international cooperation and a liberal state with minimal government control.

What social welfare net?

The response from the stall was mixed, it was in a Labour area and we were handing out leaflets on an AV meeting. I did have one person accuse me of destroying the welfare state, and being worse than the Tories. I also had others who hadn’t heard about AV before, so I explained it to them. One old guy said how his generation had ruined the country, but the Coalition was fucked because it’s already unpopular and normally it takes governments a few years to get unpopular. Another person said they didn’t mind the coalition but thought the Lib Dems should be more vocal in standing up against the Conservatives.

It’s a bit different in my area there is a local council coalition with Labour though so some people are happy we are keeping the Tories out of power on the council. One thing that pleases me is the local coalition with Labour is going quite well.

What a surprise.

 

[stethoscope]

she was changing not just the way shde communicated, but the entire message; from trendy left pitch to one nation tory, in essence.

Not unusual... reminds me of a few 'encounters' I've had over the years.

 

[elbows]

I Would add to this; their used to be a lot of Liberals who belonged to a far more progressive strain of liberalism, one which believed that civil liberties were meaningless without social economy and social and economic justice. Unfortunately, they all left, leaving the field clear for the Orange Book crowd.
I bet these are people who nevertheless voted LD at the last election (or GREen) and are now watching in utter horror.

Ta for the info. When was this? Before, during or after the Liberal-SDP merger?

 

[elbows]

Oh deary me...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11537333

Nick Clegg has urged his MPs to look at "all the facts" before deciding whether to oppose a rise in tuition fees.

The deputy prime minister said he would "understand" if fellow Lib Dems felt they could not back it, after signing a pre-election pledge not to do so.

"I am painfully aware of the pledge we all made to voters on tuition fees ahead of the general election. Departing from that pledge will be one of the most difficult decisions of my political career."

But the assumptions underlying that pledge were no longer practical, he added, because the financial situation facing the country had changed completely and there were a lack of "plausible alternatives" to the framework set out in the Browne report.

What a load of bollocks - when did the financial situation change, hardly after the election unless he thinks the coalition policies are going to make the economy far worse than it was known to be before the election.

 

[ViolentPanda]

yup; working class families have dfolk-memory historical horror of debt.

I still do. It's why I won't even have a credit card. It's also why I've done all my higher ed, both under and post-grad, part-time and as and when I could afford it, rather than full-time.

 

[ericjarvis]

Oh deary me...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11537333

What a load of bollocks - when did the financial situation change, hardly after the election unless he thinks the coalition policies are going to make the economy far worse than it was known to be before the election.

The financial situation changed the moment it became necessary for his career to toe the Tory line.

 

[frogwoman]

you do look awful nice in your new blue dress. it really brings out your hue

Yeah, I'm a tory. You sussed me.

 

[ymu]

Yeah, I'm a tory. You sussed me.

I don't know how you're going to deal with his ingenious arguments froggie. I mean, the amount of thought and research that so obviously goes into them, you've no hope. Just give up and admit it. You are, in fact, a racist swappie Tory.