Why the lib-dems are shit

[frogwoman]

Pathetic, you even prepared to praise the Tories.

Hahahaha! We're not the ones in a coalition with them.

All I'm saying is that they're not sell outs and don't decieve their voters (well, not that much, anyway). If you vote tory, you know exactly what you are voting for. Nobody votes tory because they think they are going to scrap tuition fees or stop the war and all that stuff. The Tories don't go around telling people they're the "party for students" and then stab their core vote in the back and they don't spend time appealing or attempting to appeal to left-wing voters.

 

[frogwoman]

it's because the Tories are such cunts she said that. If they started NOT being cunts they would then be sell outs to their true supporters. She isbasically saying that the Tories are the only party true to their supporters.

Yep

 

[i_got_poison]

Leftie - LOL.

define leftie and then devise an argument as to why i'm not one.

 

[moon23]

it's because the Tories are such cunts she said that. If they started NOT being cunts they would then be sell outs to their true supporters. She isbasically saying that the Tories are the only party true to their supporters.

Not really they promised not to touch child benefit then scrapped it for those earning > £44K which is likely to include quite a few Tory supporters. Many Tory supporters also feel betrayed over the EU.

 

[kyser_soze]

Steve Bells cartoon today is excellent:

 

[stethoscope]

Pathetic, you even prepared to praise the Tories.

Knowing where you stand with the Tories is not the same as praising them

 

[ymu]

It's an argument, not my words but that of the Green's deputy leader. The NO camp will portray a NO vote as evidence that people don't want electroal reform and that they are happy with the status quo.

AV is about giving people a fairer choice of representative, and ensuring MPs have to work harder to gain the majority of support. If people want to vote against it becuase they don't like the Lib Dems for forming a coalition with the conservative party they are welcome to cut off their noses to spit in our faces.

What the fuck difference does it make who said it? For fuck's sake. Just because you're a tribalist does not mean the rest of us can't think for ourselves. I don't care who said it. You repeated it because you thought it was a good argument. It is not. It is a shit argument.

 

[stethoscope]

define leftie and then devise an argument as to why i'm not one.

You're not very good as this

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I think this is a very sad turning point, if the left decide to vote against the non-partisan yes campaign because they think it will punish the Lib Dem's.
Look forward to another 20-30 years of First Past the Post and the familiar cycle of Labour/Conservative governments delivering the same.

Since AV can be less proportional than FPTP you criticism of 'delivering the same' lacks substance.

What does have substance is the Tories reliance on the Lib Dems to push through their shared agenda. For those opposed to that politics, attacking the coalition by voting no to AV seems a wise course of action. Of course I can understand that as a Lib Dem you can see what's in store for your party if the vote goes against you.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Kaka Tim]

People will see a vote for AV as a way of enhancing the position of the lib dems - and that will be a major disincnetive for many people due to the lib dems shameless tory-love. They've fucked their best chance of achieving their cherished electrol reform in generations becasue clegg wanted a cabinet seat. Utter twats. And now they winge that the likely faliure of the referendum is the fault of the 'cynicism' of the left! - good grief.

Fuck you with fucking nobs on.

 

[moon23]

Hahahaha! We're not the ones in a coalition with them.

All I'm saying is that they're not sell outs and don't decieve their voters (well, not that much, anyway). If you vote tory, you know exactly what you are voting for. Nobody votes tory because they think they are going to scrap tuition fees or stop the war and all that stuff. The Tories don't go around telling people they're the "party for students" and then stab their core vote in the back and they don't spend time appealing or attempting to appeal to left-wing voters.

The Liberal Democrats are a centre party so sometimes they appeal to left-wing voters on certain issues. There was a group of Lib Dem voters who voted for the party on it's anti-Iraq war and Civil liberties stance who then assumed the party was some left-wing version of Labour.

I agree the party has made a big mistake with the students, and it's really pissing a lot of people off. I'm glad Mulholland is fighting the case and I hope there is a big rebellion. To be honest I think Nick should be leading that rebellion.

I think it’s totally wrong that a load of people who all had a free education themselves are saddling a younger generation with debt.

 

[stethoscope]

People will see a vote for AV as a way of enhancing the position of the lib dems - and that will be a major disincnetive for many people due to the lib dems shameless tory-love. They've fucked their best chance of achieving their cherished electrol reform in generations becasue clegg wanted a cabinet seat. Utter twats. And now they winge that the likely faliure of the referendum is the fault of the 'cynicism' of the left! - good grief.

It's quite fucking breathtaking isn't it?!

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Theleft in this country makes me despair sometimes. Opportunistically jumping on the NO bandwagon as they think they can punish the Lib Dems and gain electorally from it. Hopefully Ed Miliband has more principled politics, and will steer the Labour party towards supporting AV.

Nothing opportunist in opposing AV if what you want is a more proportional voting system.

Nothing opportunist in opposing AV if you are opposed to the entrenching of neo-liberlaism which the coalition is attempting.

Something deeply opportunist in promoting AV which just happens to offer the chance of keeping Lib Dem fingers in the govermental pie.

Louis MacNeice

 

[stethoscope]

Besides, the Lib Dems don't care about the left, Clegg said so:

"There is no future for us as left-wing rivals to Labour."

So, fuck 'em.

 

[moon23]

Since AV can be less proportional than FPTP you criticism of 'delivering the same' lacks substance.

What does have substance is the Tories reliance on the Lib Dems to push through their shared agenda. For those opposed to that politics, attacking the coalition by voting no to AV seems a wise course of action. Of course I can understand that as a Lib Dem you can see what's in store for your party if the vote goes against you.

Louis MacNeice

One of the reasons I joined the Lib Dems is because I believe that electoral reform is necessary and the party remains the best vehicle for achieving that reform. If the Lib Dems lose the vote they will be more tied to the coalition than ever. What else will they have, other than holding on for the full-term in the hope the economy picks up?

If they win the AV vote then the party is far more likely to attempt to break the coalition and fight an election, if Labour supported the AV vote and Milliband has been positive about a Lab-Lib pact then you could see a more progressive alliance.

 

[fractionMan]

you mug

 

[frogwoman]

The Liberal Democrats are a centre party so sometimes they appeal to left-wing voters on certain issues. There was a group of Lib Dem voters who voted for the party on it's anti-Iraq war and Civil liberties stance who then assumed the party was some left-wing version of Labour.

I agree the party has made a big mistake with the students, and it's really pissing a lot of people off. I'm glad Mulholland is fighting the case and I hope there is a big rebellion. To be honest I think Nick should be leading that rebellion.

I think it’s totally wrong that a load of people who all had a free education themselves are saddling a younger generation with debt.

Thanks for your polite and considerate reply. I wouldn't hold your breath though about the rebellion though - and I don't think clegg would have anythign to do with it

 

[moon23]

Nothing opportunist in opposing AV if what you want is a more proportional voting system.

Nothing opportunist in opposing AV if you are opposed to the entrenching of neo-liberlaism which the coalition is attempting.

Something deeply opportunist in promoting AV which just happens to offer the chance of keeping Lib Dem fingers in the govermental pie.

Louis MacNeice

You are aware the NO campaign is backed by neo-liberals though? How is voting NO going to oppose their politics? It's run by Matthew Elliot FFS.

 

[frogwoman]

One of the reasons I joined the Lib Dems is because I believe that electoral reform is necessary and the party remains the best vehicle for achieving that reform. If the Lib Dems lose the vote they will be more tied to the coalition than ever. What else will they have, other than holding on for the full-term in the hope the economy picks up?

If they win the AV vote then the party is far more likely to attempt to break the coalition and fight an election, if Labour supported the AV vote and Milliband has been positive about a Lab-Lib pact then you could see a more progressive alliance.

If we get AV it will fuck any chances of getting real PR in this counntry for a v long time if that's what you want.

 

[stethoscope]

One of the reasons I joined the Lib Dems is because I believe that electoral reform is necessary and the party remains the best vehicle for achieving that reform. If the Lib Dems lose the vote they will be more tied to the coalition than ever. What else will they have, other than holding on for the full-term in the hope the economy picks up?

Then they should walk away from it - let the coalition collapse. Put your one-time principles above trying to soften the blow of the Tories a bit by bit (which is already starting to look a bit hollow). Stand outside and oppose the Tories outright.

 

[frogwoman]

You are aware the NO campaign is backed by neo-liberals though? How is voting NO going to oppose their politics? It's run by Matthew Elliot FFS.

The Yes campaign is also backed by neo-liberals.

 

[stethoscope]

You are aware the NO campaign is backed by neo-liberals though? How is voting NO going to oppose their politics? It's run by Matthew Elliot FFS.

The Taxpayers Rich-cunts Alliance are going to back stuff whenever it suits them anyway... fuck them too. You don't have to vote NO for the same reasons as them!

Christ sakes!

 

[frogwoman]

I'm sure I could find a few issues where I agree with the BNP's stated position on (what's their position on AV btw?) That doesn't mean I'm about to vote for them though. If they came out in favour of AV, would this be a sign you spported the BNP? Because that's essentially what your argument is saying. Don't oppose something because someone else opposes it. Wtf?

 

[moon23]

People will see a vote for AV as a way of enhancing the position of the lib dems - and that will be a major disincnetive for many people due to the lib dems shameless tory-love. They've fucked their best chance of achieving their cherished electrol reform in generations becasue clegg wanted a cabinet seat. Utter twats. And now they winge that the likely faliure of the referendum is the fault of the 'cynicism' of the left! - good grief.

Fuck you with fucking nobs on.

I can understand this bit - we hate the Tories therefore we hate the Lib Dems for going into Coalition with them. I can't understand that it therefore follows that we should vote along Tory lines against the AV referendum to smite the Lib Dems for going along with the Tories.

Sorry that just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

 

[Santino]

You are aware the NO campaign is backed by neo-liberals though? How is voting NO going to oppose their politics? It's run by Matthew Elliot FFS.

You keep saying this as if it means something. The YES campaign is back by hypocritical promise-breaking Lib Dem neo-liberal scum. How it voting YES going to oppose their politics?

 

[Random]

I think very very few people will be voting either for or against the AV amendment. I'm with them.

 

[moon23]

The Taxpayers Rich-cunts Alliance are going to back stuff whenever it suits them anyway... fuck them too. You don't have to vote NO for the same reasons as them!

Christ sakes!

I know you'd rather help the Tories and punish the Lib Dems - Fair enough if you prefer revenge over principle then go for it.

 

[moon23]

You keep saying this as if it means something. The YES campaign is back by hypocritical promise-breaking Lib Dem neo-liberal scum. How it voting YES going to oppose their politics?

and the Green party.

 

[elbows]

I know you'd rather help the Tories and punish the Lib Dems - Fair enough if you prefer revenge over principle then go for it.

This argument would be easier to make if the principal hadnt already been eroded long before the referendum comes.

 

[stethoscope]

I know you'd rather help the Tories and punish the Lib Dems - Fair enough if you prefer revenge over principle then go for it.

I hate both the Lib Dems and the Tories - although it's hard to know which is which atm.