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Why the lib-dems are shit

Ther poor are richer now in the UK then they were in the 30s 40s or 50s. People have far more consumer goods these days.

Partly because we have a lot more consumer goods these days, and because consumer goods have got cheaper because the jobs producing them have been exported to countries with lower wages, leaving people in the UK in lower paid service sector work, or with no work at all. People on low incomes are still having to choose between heat and food because their income doesn't stretch far enough. You can't seriously be claiming that there isn't a problem? And if you are, you're part if it.

[Dorling] identifies five sets of beliefs – elitism, exclusion, prejudice, greed and despair – that he claims are replacing Beveridge's five social evils at the dawn of the welfare state (ignorance, want, idleness, squalor and disease), and have become so entrenched in Britain and some other affluent countries that they uphold an unjust system that perpetuates extreme inequality.

He makes a case for why each set of beliefs is propagated, how each contributes to a growing gap between rich and poor, and why they endure. He says: "The beliefs are supported by the media where stories often imply that some people are less deserving, where great City businessmen (and a few businesswomen) are lauded as superheroes, and where immigrants looking to work for a crumb of the City's bonuses are seen as scroungers."

Dorling feels that politicians of all hues should be called to account for overseeing such unprecedented rises in inequality that put us on a par with Victorian society. "In countries like Britain, people last lived lives as unequal as today, as measured by wage inequality, in 1854, when Charles Dickens was writing Hard Times," he states.

Dorling argues that politicians in Britain and the other most unequal rich countries – he found only the US, Portugal and Singapore out of the 25 affluent states he analysed to be more unequal than Britain – have accepted and fostered the damaging idea that inequality is "unfortunate" but inevitable, rather than seeing it, first and foremost, as unjust.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/apr/21/danny-dorling-charles-dickens-social-inequality
 
No in all those countries you had a centralisation of state power, that was wielded against people.

You stupid cultist. Each of those states hired the services of either Friedman, Hayek or one of the other Chicago Boys. Chile followed Friedman's advice to a tee. China, for example, was at its most authoritarian at the time when they had Friedman as a consultant. You cannot hollow out the state, hollow out government, under a fair democratic process. The only way the neo-liberals can do it is by force, either military or economic. An absolute free market leads to wholesale poverty, repression and vast inequality. You turd.
 
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lib dem massive achievements

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Speak up, Nick, or we'll think the worst
Sunday Times, The (London, England) - Sunday, August 29, 2010
Author: JENNI RUSSELL

When I was at university one of the geekiest boys in the year was suddenly adopted by the floppy-haired and glamorous English set. For nine months this particular boy - let's call him Thomas - glowed with pride at being allowed to host parties, go punting and share essay crises with a group of people whose confidence and style he couldn't match.

At the start of year two, Thomas came back from a summer in America and cut them all off, brutally. I asked him why he'd done it. Nothing about them had changed, he said. It was just that he'd realised that, far from conferring a reflective glamour on him, the group eclipsed him. Nobody paid him much attention, took his conversation seriously or found him desirable while he was with such a bunch of alpha males. It didn't matter whether the essays he lent the others were brilliant, or his parties diligently catered for; he never got the credit for his contributions.

Merging with the group had made him almost invisible.

The danger for Nick Clegg and the Liberal Democrats is that they're going to suffer the Thomas effect. They have been catapulted from obscurity to astonishing prominence. The difference they're making to this government is substantial. They're part of a revolution in the way it's being organised. But because we know almost nothing about the battles they're fighting, or the arguments they're making inside government, their contribution is not being recognised by the rest of us. Next to the star wattage of David Cameron, and the sheer weight of numbers of Tory MPs and ministers, the Lib Dems risk being seen as nothing more than sidekicks to the dominant party.

This may seem an odd judgment to make in the month when a Liberal is acting as the most senior politician in the country for the first time in threequarters of a century. This time last year the Lib Dem leader couldn't persuade newspaper editors to come to his party conference; now he stands in for the prime minister at the dispatch box and gets Sky News broadcasting live from his question-and-answer session in Croydon town hall. Yet being in power hasn't helped his party's reputation.

While most who voted Tory are still happy with their choice, the Lib Dems' support has fallen sharply. It is down from 23% in May to 12% this month. That suggests a lot of confusion or disillusionment with what the party is doing with its new-found power.

Part of that fall is due to the fact that many people who voted for the Lib Dems had no idea what the party stood for." They thought we were either nicer Tories, or some kind of pet of the Labour party's. They hadn't read our proposals," one activist said to me, scornfully. But part of it is due to our ignorance about how the coalition is working, and what it is realistic to expect of a minority party in government.

The Lib Dems have come under sustained attack from the left, and from some of the Labour leadership candidates, for selling out by working with the Conservatives. That criticism reveals a misunderstanding of what the party thinks it's for. Its leadership knows that it is never likely to rule on its own account. The most it can hope for is to inject liberalising policies into whichever government is in power.

"It's a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity," one Lib Dem insider told me. "Of course we'd rather have come in at a time when there was lots of money to spend, and not so many difficult decisions to make, but you don't get to choose when you take power. And we're achieving a massive amount, liberalising schooling, health, the police. We're pushing decentralisation, diversity of provision, fairness." On some issues, such as ID cards, detention without trial and the need to spend much more on the education of the poorest children, there is already agreement between the parties, but on others policy is being made through continual compromise. That's where the Lib Dems claim they are making a difference.

"I don't think that people understand what a joint venture this government now is," the insider said. "Every single decision that's made has to be agreed." In that process the Lib Dems are not being treated as inferiors. Their junior ministers are, unusually, given access to everything that's going on within their departments, because they are acting as the party's representatives.

"This isn't a Tory government with 3Å Lib Dems on the side," said another adviser. "We're not just winning little battles for fairness at the margins, we're pushing it everywhere. We're curbing the worst excesses of whatever the Tories might have done. We've stopped new faith schools from selecting more than half their intake, we're giving local authorities back a role in co-ordinating health and social care that the Tories wanted to take away from them, and we've insisted on a local policing panel to oversee the elected police commissioners to stop them being some kind of populist Robocop nightmare."

The party's dilemma is summed up by that comment. For the electorate to understand what the Lib Dems are achieving, they need to know what's being fought over, and what the results have been. Yet the minute each side starts publicising their disagreements, the harder it will be to reach compromises.

The concept of collective responsibility will dissolve as people defend their positions and the media leap on splits. The united front will fracture.

LibDem strategists, including Richard Reeves, Clegg 's new adviser, are acutely aware of the problem. It's their job to think about the impression the party is creating, and where it will be as a political force in three to five years' time. They have concluded that nothing would be more destructive than to keep bragging about its victories.

They argue that there are two more fundamental points that the Lib Dems have to prove if they are to become powerful players. The first is to demonstrate that coalition governments not only work, but are preferable. The second is to show that the party can be disciplined and credible in government. The party's private polling has shown that a principal reason for the evaporation of the Clegg surge in the final two days of the election campaign was that voters had no faith in the party's ability to govern. The Lib Dems were seen as likable but unreliable amateurs.

The Lib Dems' strategy for popularity turns out to be remarkably simple: ensuring the government delivers. They hope that by 2015 the economic gamble will have been won, the economy will be expanding and the electorate will reward them because Britain will be fairer, more socially mobile and more clearly liberal. Danny Alexander, the chief secretary to the Treasury, says that "our task is to show that over five years the country benefited, and that Lib Dem ministers were doing a good job".

I'm all for idealism, but politics doesn't work like that. If the Tories are seen to be dominating government, they'll get all the credit if the policies succeed, while their junior partners won't escape the blame if things go wrong. We're not accustomed to the subtleties of coalitions, and we won't bother to analyse what really went on. So if the Lib Dems want this novel administration to be the first of many, they had better stop being so highminded and start educating us in the realities of coalition politics. That doesn't mean betraying confidences, or encouraging talks of splits. It does mean consistently explaining the principles and compromises that underpin this way of governing.

This experiment in a more collegiate, thoughtful politics is brave, and deserves the chance to demonstrate whether it can work. It would be a shame if the party that has risked the most were to end up losing most.
 
You stupid cultist. Each of those states hired the services of either Friedman, Hayek or one of the other Chicago Boys. Chile followed Friedman's advice to a tee. China, for example, was at its most authoritarian at the time when they had Friedman as a consultant. You cannot hollow out the state, hollow out government, under a fair democratic process. The only way the neo-liberals can do it is by force, either military or economic. An absolute free market leads to wholesale poverty, repression and vast inequality. You turd.

Oh so you've read Naomi Klien's conspiracy theory then. China was far more authoritarian under Chairman Mao, are you aware of Prof Dikotter’s new historical work on the mass starvations? Or how the communist regime murdered 45 Million people, and used starvation and the lack of food as a weapon for social control? Compared to the background of China from the 50s - 60s then the period when Friedman was a consultant was a walk in the park.

Other great planned economy experiments include the Stasi in Eastern Germany, Collective farming in the USSR, North Korea, Gulags & Killing fields in Cambodia.

I'm *NOT* saying that a liberal economic policy will always equate to a liberal social policy, but I do think if you give individuals or state institutions power to plan economic activity then it's a very short hop over into planning social activity and controlling people.

The past new-labour was obsessed with social control, from ID cards, surveillance to the nanny state. To such an extent that people like Burnham said “ Proving who you are, day-in, day-out, is part of being a good citizen".

Labour allowed public spending to spiral out of control in areas that didn’t actually help people, that has damaged the public finances. Something now needs to be done about it otherwise we will be in a dire economic situation, and if our currency goes tits up and we can’t repay our debts then far more people will lose their jobs.

It’s deeply unfair to say I don’t care about people losing their jobs because I do, it’s just I also have a different economic understanding of the situation. Personally I think some people on this board have a rather naive and simplistic view of economics and politics, which is reinforced by what is frankly childish name-calling towards someone who is here to have an mature debate.
 
Oh so you've read Naomi Klien's conspiracy theory then. China was far more authoritarian under Chairman Mao, are you aware of Prof Dikotter’s new historical work on the mass starvations? Or how the communist regime murdered 45 Million people, and used starvation and the lack of food as a weapon for social control? Compared to the background of China from the 50s - 60s then the period when Friedman was a consultant was a walk in the park.

Other great planned economy experiments include the Stasi in Eastern Germany, Collective farming in the USSR, North Korea, Gulags & Killing fields in Cambodia.

I'm *NOT* saying that a liberal economic policy will always equate to a liberal social policy, but I do think if you give individuals or state institutions power to plan economic activity then it's a very short hop over into planning social activity and controlling people.

The past new-labour was obsessed with social control, from ID cards, surveillance to the nanny state. To such an extent that people like Burnham said “ Proving who you are, day-in, day-out, is part of being a good citizen".

Labour allowed public spending to spiral out of control in areas that didn’t actually help people, that has damaged the public finances. Something now needs to be done about it otherwise we will be in a dire economic situation, and if our currency goes tits up and we can’t repay our debts then far more people will lose their jobs.

It’s deeply unfair to say I don’t care about people losing their jobs because I do, it’s just I also have a different economic understanding of the situation. Personally I think some people on this board have a rather naive and simplistic view of economics and politics, which is reinforced by what is frankly childish name-calling towards someone who is here to have an mature debate.

ironic
 
It isn't a conspiracy theory, and Klein isn't the only one to have written about it. None of your examples demonstrate anything about a planned economy; they merely demonstrate the repressive nature of Stalinism and socialism in one country.

I'm *NOT* saying that a liberal economic policy will always equate to a liberal social policy, but I do think if you give individuals or state institutions power to plan economic activity then it's a very short hop over into planning social activity and controlling people.

Whereas placing the power to drive economic activity into the hands of a small number of capitalists is a much better idea - such people, of course, would never seek to control the population via strict restrictions on civil liberties and often human rights. Markets are not answerable to the people but to those with sufficient capital, a small minority.

Markets are man-made, they are not a natural phenomena; they are not impartial. The destruction of the state is a laudable aim, but without first ensuring power is evenly distributed and economic exploitation is curtailed then the end result will be the entrenchment and furthering of the grossly inequal society we already live in.

You can cite civil liberties as much as you like, but the fact remains that every attempt at creating the neo-liberal wank-fest you lust after has resulted in the repression of the population. Your free market dream is simply that - hopelessly utopian at best, but more likely motivated by self-interest and greed.

Labour allowed public spending to spiral out of control in areas that didn’t actually help people, that has damaged the public finances. Something now needs to be done about it otherwise we will be in a dire economic situation, and if our currency goes tits up and we can’t repay our debts then far more people will lose their jobs.

It’s deeply unfair to say I don’t care about people losing their jobs because I do, it’s just I also have a different economic understanding of the situation. Personally I think some people on this board have a rather naive and simplistic view of economics and politics, which is reinforced by what is frankly childish name-calling towards someone who is here to have an mature debate.

This is bollocks. The public debt is manageable; public spending throughout the New Labour years was significantly below what was necessary during a time of significant economic growth. Even if we accept the dodgy premise that the deficit needs to be cleared asap, it doesn't follow that the way to do this is by hammering the poor and creating vast unemployment. The tax gap alone would clear most if not all of the deficit, without even considering reforms to corporation and income tax; and those workers laid off will be forced into reliance upon the state, and will obviously not be of any productive economic benefit on the dole queue. This crisis was created on trading floors not shop floors - the crisis is a product of the free market, not of state intervention - yet it is the working class who are being made to pay; the poorest will be a massive 5% worse off thanks to your beloved Liberals' 'progressive' cuts programme. You can bleat on about how you do care about people losing their jobs as much as you like, but it is a cunts trick. You are cheer-leading a programme which has the primary motive not of reducing the deficit, but of stripping away the vestiges of social democracy conceded to the working class in the face of potential revolution in the post-war period.

You forget that we have had an absolute free market before, during the era of industrialisation in the 19th and early 20th century. A utopia it was not.
 
I would love to know where "Labour allowed public spending to spiral out of control in areas that didn’t actually help people". Some examples maybe? Does this credulous idiot really believe that the government splashed billions on the "diversity consultants" etc which the rightwing papers love splashing all over the place from time to time?
 
I would love to know where "Labour allowed public spending to spiral out of control in areas that didn’t actually help people". Some examples maybe? Does this credulous idiot really believe that the government splashed billions on the "diversity consultants" etc which the rightwing papers love splashing all over the place from time to time?

Iraq War, ID cards, pointless Quangoes, Advertising, Consultancy, Pay Checks of senior civil servants. Lots of things where money was wasted.
 
It isn't a conspiracy theory, and Klein isn't the only one to have written about it. None of your examples demonstrate anything about a planned economy; they merely demonstrate the repressive nature of Stalinism and socialism in one country.

I find it incredulous that you can simultaneously claim all the problems in Chile, China Etc. Are the result of the Chicago boys whilst denying the problems with Russia, China, North Korea have anything to do with planned economies.

When planned economies go wrong it’s down to individual dictators and leaders, when countries following economically liberal polices go wrong it’s down to the economic theory.
It’s not a very convincing line of reasoning you are putting forth here.
 
Iraq War, ID cards, pointless Quangoes, Advertising, Consultancy, Pay Checks of senior civil servants. Lots of things where money was wasted.

Be more specific. How much of that pointless spending was on each of those? With the exception of the Iraq War, which the members of your beloved coalition all supported once it kicked off anyway, I don't think you'll find the billions you're looking for on that list. "Consultancy" is another thing beloved of your liberal economic gurus.

Let's have a list of quangoes, specifically how much they cost and how this could be got rid of without affecting anything which "actually helps people".

Otherwise you're just full of hot air and wild generalisations.
 
I find it incredulous that you can simultaneously claim all the problems in Chile, China Etc. Are the result of the Chicago boys whilst denying the problems with Russia, China, North Korea have anything to do with planned economies.

When planned economies go wrong it’s down to individual dictators and leaders, when countries following economically liberal polices go wrong it’s down to the economic theory.
It’s not a very convincing line of reasoning you are putting forth here.

But the repression in nominally Communist states has not been in order to force through economic reforms; rather, it has been the process of rapid industrialisation and urbanisation, and the necessity, if pursuing the flawed Stalinist doctrine of socialism in one state (as they all have), of creating an insular fortress nation, and often creating client states, to protect the 'island of socialism' from its capitalist rivals.

However, the repression in Chile, Argentina, Brasil, Uruguay, Poland, Russia, China, etc - even the UK - has been directly related to neo-liberal reforms; the repression is a necessity of neo-liberalism.

I am not for one moment defending Stalinism, but to attribute its tyranny to planned economics is beyond dumb. If you focussed on how they delivered and administered that planned economy you might be closer to the mark.
 
I could conversely say the burden of proof lies on those arguing for their contiuned existence to justify the cost in terms of the benefit to people.

Perhaps then you could start putting the case for why the British Film Council should be kept given that people may have to choose between warmth and food on the poverty line.
 
I could conversely say the burden of proof lies on those arguing for their contiuned existence to justify the cost in terms of the benefit to people.

Perhaps then you could start putting the case for why the British Film Council should be kept given that people may have to choose between warmth and food on the poverty line.

Because it generated more money for the economy than it cost to run. Next question.
 
I could conversely say the burden of proof lies on those arguing for their contiuned existence to justify the cost in terms of the benefit to people.

Perhaps then you could start putting the case for why the British Film Council should be kept given that people may have to choose between warmth and food on the poverty line.

Here's a couple of reasons off the top of my head. Because jobs depend on it. Because the film industry shouldn't have to rely on the whims and preferences of wealthy individuals if they are to produce valuable work for the rest of us to enjoy. EDIT: or, indeed, the point Santino just made above! But actually no: as it was you who made the claim that "Labour allowed public spending to spiral out of control in areas that didn’t actually help people" it's incumbent on you to back that up, not me to prove it wrong.

And as for positing the false choice between film funding and keeping people above the poverty line, that shows what unbelievably despicable people you economic liberals are when push comes to shove. You're happy for either of those to get shafted while others bowl around in unimaginable luxury barely a hundred yards away in one of the richest economies in the world.
 
Apropos of not very much, I was hugely relieved to hear Cleggy tell Croydon last week he was determined to help people "get off benefits".

Slight suggestion - in the absence of 2.5 million jobs and 20% cuts in the civil service - of cart before horse but Gawd bless yer, Mr Clegg sir, for finking about the people sir, and for being willing to help them out like this.
 
But the repression in nominally Communist states has not been in order to force through economic reforms; rather, it has been the process of rapid industrialisation and urbanisation, and the necessity, if pursuing the flawed Stalinist doctrine of socialism in one state (as they all have), of creating an insular fortress nation, and often creating client states, to protect the 'island of socialism' from its capitalist rivals.

However, the repression in Chile, Argentina, Brasil, Uruguay, Poland, Russia, China, etc - even the UK - has been directly related to neo-liberal reforms; the repression is a necessity of neo-liberalism.

I am not for one moment defending Stalinism, but to attribute its tyranny to planned economics is beyond dumb. If you focussed on how they delivered and administered that planned economy you might be closer to the mark.

The farm collectivisation program resulted in repression to force through an economic reform. It's dumb to simply state that a planned economy will always result in tyranny, what I’m attempting to get across though is that once you establish the theory that you need a planned economy then it gives an administrative state organization a grounds for legitimately wielding power over the population. Once this power is given legitimacy then there is the potential for it to be misused on a mass scale to hideous affect.

Whilst the intentions to which this power are initially wielded start of well meaning in terms of redistributing wealth, it is all too easily corrupted. Once you start to examine the functioning of how bureaucracies operate such as Max Weber did then you realize that such power is not even wielded through the bad intention of individuals, but through the system of organization. Arbitrary rules and definitions are created to try and order and structure the means by which wealth is distributed.

State power is sadly wielded through a variety of means, it’s perfectly possible to adopt an economic liberal policy within a repressive state that deploys military, religious or fear against each people. The benefit of a liberal economic policy is not just that it frees people to trade freely amongst themselves to mutual benefit of enrichment, but also that it gives an incentive towards economically productive activity. Another major benefit is that it removes one possible justification and means of social control because goods and services are not provided by the state.
 
Because it generated more money for the economy than it cost to run. Next question.

Did it? Can you prove this? I suspect it gave people's hard owned taxes and placed them in the hands of an artistic elite who dished out funding for their old university chums to undertake their latest project.
 
The farm collectivisation program resulted in repression to force through an economic reform. It's dumb to simply state that a planned economy will always result in tyranny, what I’m attempting to get across though is that once you establish the theory that you need a planned economy then it gives an administrative state organization a grounds for legitimately wielding power over the population. Once this power is given legitimacy then there is the potential for it to be misused on a mass scale to hideous affect.

Whilst the intentions to which this power are initially wielded start of well meaning in terms of redistributing wealth, it is all too easily corrupted. Once you start to examine the functioning of how bureaucracies operate such as Max Weber did then you realize that such power is not even wielded through the bad intention of individuals, but through the system of organization. Arbitrary rules and definitions are created to try and order and structure the means by which wealth is distributed.

State power is sadly wielded through a variety of means, it’s perfectly possible to adopt an economic liberal policy within a repressive state that deploys military, religious or fear against each people. The benefit of a liberal economic policy is not just that it frees people to trade freely amongst themselves to mutual benefit of enrichment, but also that it gives an incentive towards economically productive activity. Another major benefit is that it removes one possible justification and means of social control because goods and services are not provided by the state.

And that's why you vote Lib Dem?
 
Here's a couple of reasons off the top of my head. Because jobs depend on it. Because the film industry shouldn't have to rely on the whims and preferences of wealthy individuals if they are to produce valuable work for the rest of us to enjoy. EDIT: or, indeed, the point Santino just made above! But actually no: as it was you who made the claim that "Labour allowed public spending to spiral out of control in areas that didn’t actually help people" it's incumbent on you to back that up, not me to prove it wrong.

And as for positing the false choice between film funding and keeping people above the poverty line, that shows what unbelievably despicable people you economic liberals are when push comes to shove. You're happy for either of those to get shafted while others bowl around in unimaginable luxury barely a hundred yards away in one of the richest economies in the world.

That it would cost jobs is not an argument of itself. Scrapping the Nazi death machine would have 'cost jobs', that poor Fritz who pulled the gas chamber leaver. The point is rather are the jobs of use to people and could the money be used to undertake even more economically productive activity that provided more job or helped the poorest in society.

It's not a false dichotomy to look at spending and consider if it could be better spent on something else.
 
fuck me, is your argument really "it's better than stalinism" :facepalm:



Like tax cuts for the rich

No my argument is that wasting public spending on creating a bueracracy to support a private film industry that dishes out funding to those within the artisitic elite is not a good use of people's taxes.

Rich people pay the most taxes.
 
No my argument is that wasting public spending on creating a bueracracy to support a private film industry that dishes out funding to those within the artisitic elite is not a good use of people's taxes.

Rich people pay the most taxes.

I expect you think cutting corporation tax will make everyone else more wealthy too.
 
I expect you think cutting corporation tax will make everyone else more wealthy too.

A high corporation tax is not economically efficient and would be economic suicide in a global economy. The law of comparative advantage shows it’s better to allow corporations to trade than to tax them and use the funds for populist short-term protectionist measures.
 
I could conversely say the burden of proof lies on those arguing for their contiuned existence to justify the cost in terms of the benefit to people.

Perhaps then you could start putting the case for why the British Film Council should be kept given that people may have to choose between warmth and food on the poverty line.

Why do you persist with this myth that we need to make drastic cuts? We don't. This was a crisis of the capitalist class, wholly and completely, and the means with which to repay the deficit also lies with the capitalist class. If the UK just collected its taxes properly - not even introduce new taxes - the deficit could be repaid within a short period. But more to the point, cuts aren't necessary at all; it is simply the justification for planned neo-liberal reforms.

Quite why you far right loons have such a been in your bonnet about public funding, I don't know. Public sector performs better than private sector across the board, and furthermore provides better value for money; it also ensures such services are universal. Give me one, just one, example of a privatisation that has delivered.
 
A high corporation tax is not economically efficient and would be economic suicide in a global economy. The law of comparative advantage shows it’s better to allow corporations to trade than to tax them and use the funds for populist short-term protectionist measures.

What the hell happened to you? You've become a tory robot.
 
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