Why is Urban Pol full of racist threads?

[revol68]

But don't you see the fallacy of your argument, your justification of immigration controls is that exist, you will offer no other justification as to why they should be desirable. Therefore our arguments as to why they are a hinderance can have no effect, because even if we show them as undesirable, that is not your justification of them.

The only way we could justify ourselves to you would be to abolish immigration controls, and yet if people assumed your position, we could never discredit immigration control as their justification is not based on any perceived consequence or even principle but on the basis of their existance.

Alas the status quo remains and all progress dies.

 

[118118]

Look. Right now, we don't have open borders. I don't have to fight to keep it that way. You on the other hand, well, you've certainly got your work cut out.

So. You can say "please" all you want. You can even "beg" me to back up what I'm posting, with hard facts. But I don't have to. I won't and I'm certainly not. Because when we both log off this afternoon, there will still be immigration controls.

And that's they way it's going to be for a long time after we are both dead and buried.

FFS, this is so far, the most heart warming display of sheer stupidity I have EVER f*ing scene! lol

 

[118118]

Is this guy a fascist troll, or what then o ) (serious like) He's basically admitted that he's here to convince people immigration is bad, but has no reason for holding this belief or doing so. He must have a reason and a reason, ergo it must be fascistic. Or f*ing mentally undemocratic, poor, lost little Stalinst..
Srug, maybe just a troll

 

[TonkaToy]

so what do you want?

minimum wage for everybody?

A national minimum wage is worlds apart from wage structures.

 

[TonkaToy]

Is this guy a fascist troll, or what then o ) (serious like)

Is this guy (118118) an anti white working class troll, or what then? (serious like).

 

[revol68]

A national minimum wage is worlds apart from wage structures.

how?

And before the national minimum wage did you justify it's absence by its ahem absence?

This is embarassing, I thought TonkaToy was a pretty cool name, but now I realise it's what he drives.

 

[snadge]

A national minimum wage is worlds apart from wage structures.

I know that you donkey.

What I would like to know from you is, why you think it is a good thing employers can wage cut and not pay the agreed rate for labour?

 

[118118]

Is this guy (118118) an anti white working class troll, or what then? (serious like).

lol: "My mates think that the white working class are responsible for everything bad in society, we have no reasoning, proof, or motivation behind this claim. However, I will continue to post that the white working class are to blame for everything, because my mates agree"

Maybe, a lack of democratic structures in place.

Oh, you might be the w/c right wing guy - if so - shrug.

 

[118118]

Is this guy (118118) an anti white working class troll, or what then? (serious like).

I guess this sums up nicely, how much your accusations are worth.

 

[118118]

Anyway "toytroll", this wan't about race, was it?

(ffs, i'm notreading thew wqhole thread again)

 

[TonkaToy]

how?

And before the national minimum wage did you justify it's absence by its ahem absence?

This is embarassing, I thought TonkaToy was a pretty cool name, but now I realise it's what he drives.

Oh so your "wage structures" will have no collective bargaining or ceilings?

 

[TonkaToy]

I guess this sums up nicely, how much your accusations are worth.

I didn't start making random accusations, you did. Perhaps if you could actually come up with a decent argument for open borders, you wouldn't bother trying to drag the topic into the gutter by making futile and pointless personal accusations.

 

[revol68]

I meant how are they different in qualitive terms, eg how are they any less an "artifical" intervention in the market?

One get's the impression lateral or in fact any sort of reasoning isn't your strong point.

 

[TonkaToy]

Anyway "toytroll", this wan't about race, was it?

(ffs, i'm notreading thew wqhole thread again)

No it wasn't. I don't have much time for a lot of these race issues, unlike the OP who seems obsessed by the subjuect.

 

[revol68]

I didn't start making random accusations, you did. Perhaps if you could actually come up with a decent argument for open borders, you wouldn't bother trying to drag the topic into the gutter by making futile and pointless personal accusations.

The arguments have been given, it is you who refused to offer anyones back, rather you rely on a circular argument.

 

[118118]

*Outraged*

 

[TonkaToy]

I meant how are they different in qualitive terms, eg how are they any less an "artifical" intervention in the market?

One get's the impression lateral or in fact any sort of reasoning isn't your strong point.

Because we as British people only have direct control over our own markets. We only have a free flow of people within the European Union, not outside it. Even then, there is NO CULTURAL interest with the European Union. The general population doesn't even want closer European ties.

The British poplation wants to be able to adapt to the market, but it finds itself being shortcutted by very short term fixes of importing labour.

It's not just about the price of that labour, but the skills.

Certain sections of the left, understands, that there is a lot of people, including myself, who are working class and want to adapt to the market. At all costs, you would love to fuck people like me up, by having labour imported before I can adapt to that market, then blame it all on capitalism and the bosses.

Sorry. But I see through all of that and I want none of it.

 

[TonkaToy]

Globalisation isn't going away. To compete in this world we need a flexible market and the left thinks that it can get rid of globalisation with revolutions and legislate a decent living for the working classes. It ain't going to happen.

I want to compete in the global workplace with laws that allow me to do so, without the market being destablised with open borders.

 

[revol68]

Because we as British people only have direct control over our own markets. We only have a free flow of people within the European Union, not outside it. Even then, there is NO CULTURAL interest with the European Union. The general population doesn't even want closer European ties.

The British poplation wants to be able to adapt to the market, but it finds itself being shortcutted by very short term fixes of importing labour.

It's not just about the price of that labour, but the skills.

Certain sections of the left, understands, that there is a lot of people, including myself, who are working class and want to adapt to the market. At all costs, you would love to fuck people like me up, by having labour imported before I can adapt to that market, then blame it all on capitalism and the bosses.

Sorry. But I see through all of that and I want none of it.

sorry to break this to you, I mean really this was something your Granny should have told you, but the "British people" do not have control over their "own markets" not that there is an actual "British market" to control.

 

[TonkaToy]

sorry to break this to you, I mean really this was something your Granny should have told you, but the "British people" do not have control over their "own markets" not that there is an actual "British market" to control.

Then why are you bothering to ask for legislation then? If we can't control the market, why bother to regulate it? Why bother to bring out legislation then?

 

[revol68]

Then why are you bothering to ask for legislation then? If we can't control the market, why bother to regulate it? Why bother to bring out legislation then?

Are you a cretin, I'm supporting the struggles of working class people to impose their demands on capital, or don't you think that "labour power" is an intregal commodity in the market?

clown.

 

[TonkaToy]

Are you a cretin, I'm supporting the struggles of working class people to impose their demands on capital, or don't you think that "labour power" is an intregal commodity in the market?

clown.

There is no point in making demands on capital....when you do that, it has a habit of running away and it becomes much harder to generate capital.

You are not convincing me at all.

Unions + wage structure regulation = restrictions on creation of capital, with open borders making it much harder to chase around after smaller and smaller amounts of capitaal.

Economic freedoms with immigration controls allows my co-patriots a lot of flexibility to create capital with a lot of oppotunity for me to adapt to the markets where that capital is.

 

[TonkaToy]

Also. Do not call me names. You will not be able to convince anyone for "no borders" if you call people names and resort to abuse.

 

[revol68]

Also. Do not call me names. You will not be able to convince anyone for "no borders" if you call people names and resort to abuse.

Haven't you already pointed out that the only justification you need for immigration control is their existance? Even your infantile mind must understand that this rules out the possibility me ever convincing you of anything that isn't already in place, therefore I can call you a "shit-kicking, stinky horse-manure smelling motherfucker!" without concern for ever damaging my chances of convincing you.

What's your occupation btw and what do your co workers make of your thoughts?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I've been skimming this thread and am slightly concerned that the OP said that there is a rise in 'racist' threads.

I can't say I've noticed them. What I have noticed is a rise in the number of posters / threads challenging the 1970's / 1980's concept of 'identity politics' as the be all and end all of socialist thinking. Our identity is our politics to a certain extent but it shouldn't be the whole thing. It is recognised that people occupy lots of different identities ie you can be female/unwaged/muslim and gay all at the same time.

The lack of a Sons and Daughters housing policy (abeit with safeguards to prevent ethnic gerrymandering) coupled with the effects of right to buy and demographic change has created a mass of resentment in WWC areas like Dagenham which is being exploited by the far right. There is a shortage of housing for everyone but the attitudes of the local authority and the language used is alienating people thereby allowing the bnp to paint themselves quite successfully as the peoples saviour.

All this academic posturing about what Marx said etc etc is not going to shift one bnp councillor. It's just the equivilant of debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

It's not racist to want immigration controls that are fair and balanced similarily it's not racist to want to see those who've lived in an area fora fair while be given priority inhousing rather than be allocated via other means such as housing points or fast tracked via homelessness legislation.

The middle class Trot left has created a situation where the long serving labour councillors who really do care about their consituents and have served them well for many years in some cases are just not trusted as they are percieved to be against the people.

I'm notsayin tht people on te left should steal the bnp's clothes but socialists need to reclaim the working classes in my area by getting off of their arses and doing some thing positive.

The best thing that could happen to the left is if all the trot groups took a coach trip together off of Beachy Head.

This middle class liberaly leftism is turning off a lot of people and the reciepents of support are people who'd I'd rather see nowhere near even the sniff of power.

 

[snadge]

Globalisation isn't going away. To compete in this world we need a flexible market and the left thinks that it can get rid of globalisation with revolutions and legislate a decent living for the working classes. It ain't going to happen.

I want to compete in the global workplace with laws that allow me to do so, without the market being destablised with open borders.

you'r a fuckin' hypocrite, in one breath you say

Laws, laws, laws, legislation and more laws.

Biggest enemy of progress.

and now you want some



I also want to compete in the global market, I also want to be paid the correct rate of pay for my skills in the country of choice...


So do people from all over the world, as you do, but you don't want the UK to allow this, closed borders, only you can travel the world working.


do you get it yet thicket?

 

[Nigel]

funny, i normally hate what the cunt has to say, but i understand fully his point here.

of course i'm pished out of my tree, but i get his point!

to fucking reduce a dream as beautiful as communism to a grubby lil base desire of self interest.

pathetic cunts.

Have you refound you Irish Celtic Roots by your dialogue.
Toich Faidh Ar La

 

[snadge]

I've been skimming this thread and am slightly concerned that the OP said that there is a rise in 'racist' threads.

I can't say I've noticed them. What I have noticed is a rise in the number of posters / threads challenging the 1970's / 1980's concept of 'identity politics' as the be all and end all of socialist thinking. Our identity is our politics to a certain extent but it shouldn't be the whole thing. It is recognised that people occupy lots of different identities ie you can be female/unwaged/muslim and gay all at the same time.

The lack of a Sons and Daughters housing policy (abeit with safeguards to prevent ethnic gerrymandering) coupled with the effects of right to buy and demographic change has created a mass of resentment in WWC areas like Dagenham which is being exploited by the far right. There is a shortage of housing for everyone but the attitudes of the local authority and the language used is alienating people thereby allowing the bnp to paint themselves quite successfully as the peoples saviour.

All this academic posturing about what Marx said etc etc is not going to shift one bnp councillor. It's just the equivilant of debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

It's not racist to want immigration controls that are fair and balanced similarily it's not racist to want to see those who've lived in an area fora fair while be given priority inhousing rather than be allocated via other means such as housing points or fast tracked via homelessness legislation.

The middle class Trot left has created a situation where the long serving labour councillors who really do care about their consituents and have served them well for many years in some cases are just not trusted as they are percieved to be against the people.

I'm notsayin tht people on te left should steal the bnp's clothes but socialists need to reclaim the working classes in my area by getting off of their arses and doing some thing positive.

The best thing that could happen to the left is if all the trot groups took a coach trip together off of Beachy Head.

This middle class liberaly leftism is turning off a lot of people and the reciepents of support are people who'd I'd rather see nowhere near even the sniff of power.

bang on the money with that post, alongside the points that I have made about wages going down due to lax emloyment law and the BNP are gaining support all the time.

 

[revol68]

except son's and daugthers is a reactionary crock of shit, as i've pointed out numerous times on this thread, complete with reasons, yet no one has actually dealt with the, just asserted that son's and daughters isn't reactionary.

The very idea of arguing for a sons' and daughters policy is falling into the trap of scrapping over crumbs. Not only that but it's fucked up in essence. Should a 20 year old with no kids, livng with his parents be offered a house before a 30 year old single mother who just doesn't happen to have a parent from the area? I don't think anyone would think that even fair within a bourgeois framework.

it also means that with a shortage of houses that new immigrants will be ghettoised from the rest of the "settled" population, and this is just a recipe for an easily exploitable underclass, and serves only to guarantee an explosive mix of race, poverty and exclusion, and will no doubt infect the "settled" population with a reactionary sense of superiority.

 

[snadge]

except son's and daugthers is a reactionary crock of shit, as i've pointed out numerous times on this thread, complete with reasons, yet no one has actually dealt with the, just asserted that son's and daughters isn't reactionary.

The very idea of arguing for a sons' and daughters policy is falling into the trap of scrapping over crumbs. Not only that but it's fucked up in essence. Should a 20 year old with no kids, livng with his parents be offered a house before a 30 year old single mother who just doesn't happen to have a parent from the area? I don't think anyone would think that even fair within a bourgeois framework.

it also means that with a shortage of houses that new immigrants will be ghettoised from the rest of the "settled" population, and this is just a recipe for an easily exploitable underclass, and serves only to guarantee an explosive mix of race, poverty and exclusion, and will no doubt infect the "settled" population with a reactionary sense of superiority.

good points, sons and daughters type policy will always alienate people, it also lets others live a life of apathy, nepotism in the workplace is rife and should also be addressed.

The BNP and their ilk are gaining support all the time, sometimes I think that politico types want this, create a situation where mainstream parties can introduce draconian laws due to the extreme parties gaining support, blair and his cronies seem very clued up on this, manipulating peoples fears to their advantage.