Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[smokedout]

I'm saying that if you believe your 4 year old is transgender, and treat them as such, that might have an impact on how they see themselves.

how do you treat a four year old as transgender?

 

[smokedout]

I'm saying that if you believe your 4 year old is transgender, and treat them as such, that might have an impact on how they see themselves.

you know people used to say this about gay switchboard, that if you treat children as if they might be gay, or that that's normal and ok, you might warp them and turn them gay

 

[bimble]

I looked for the article I remembered reading about the number of children with gender dysphoria who go on to have it as adults http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/12/transgender-children-have-to-respect-who-he-is
The Gender Identity service at the Tavistock are saying 16%.

Mermaids, a support group for children and parents dealing with transgender issues, has a link to this article from new scientist which says, similarly to your figure above, that "only 20% of boys who show signs of gender identity disorder in childhood continue to show it into adulthood."
It mentions also that if you start hormone blockers before mature sperm have had a chance to develop, then you obviously remove the choice of that person being able to start a family in later life should they change their mind.

Given the incredibly high risk of self harm & suicide though it's totally understandable that people want to listen to their children, take them at their word and get them the help they are asking for, by giving hormone blockers, like my 14 year old relative. But obviously there are consequences, especially around what if they change their mind later on.

 

[kingfisher]

well, what do you do when you are faced with prejudice in your community JOIN MI5!!!! - seriously are there any LGBTQ analysis of the rise in stonewall rankings of MI5 - or is it just a big joke, ha ha ha - btw some of my best mates (are mi5)

 

[Thora]

you know people used to say this about gay switchboard, that if you treat children as if they might be gay, or that that's normal and ok, you might warp them and turn them gay

What does treating a 4 year old as if they are gay mean? Do you dress them differently, use a different name and inform their reception class teacher that they are gay

 

[8ball]

...it mentions also that if you start hormone blockers before mature sperm have had a chance to develop, then you obviously remove the choice of that person being able to start a family in later life should they change their mind.

Hang on, is that somewhere on the Mermaids link or somewhere else?

 

[spanglechick]

Surely what's happening with very young children is that they (and hopefully all children) are being made aware that some people feel that they have the wrong physical sex, and that these people can be helped to live their life as the gender they believe they are. If a child as young as four is exhibiting the prolonged psychological distress inherent in dysphoria, I would hope that they are offered a range of possible answers to that. I also tend to believe that parents and doctors want something more profound than a period gender non-conformity before any absolute label was applied ("you are definitely x") or any medicalisation given.

I see no harm at all, and a lot of positivity in, for example, allowing a young child to choose another name and gendered pronouns / clothing for a period of time.

 

[smokedout]

What does treating a 4 year old as if they are gay mean? Do you dress them differently, use a different name and inform their reception class teacher that they are gay

so you think parents should rigourously police traditional gender roles if children show signs of not adhering to them? even for you, you're all over the place.

 

[bimble]

Hang on, is that somewhere on the Mermaids link or somewhere else?

yep, here:
http://www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/Science/delaying puberty new scientist.pdf

 

[Thora]

so you think parents should rigourously police traditional gender roles if children show signs of not adhering to them? even for you, you're all over the place.

I thought you were comparing it to identifying a 4 year old as gay I'm not sure how you do that. I've not actually seen anyone identifying their 3/4/5 year old as gay whereas I have seen parents and teachers identifying very young children as transgender.

 

[8ball]

yep, here:
http://www.mermaidsuk.org.uk/Science/delaying puberty new scientist.pdf

No, that's not what it says. (would have been scary if it did)

Though really massive trials to check for any effect on later fertility do not seem to have been carried out. Understandably.

 

[bimble]

No, that's not what it says. (would have been scary if it did)

which bit are you talking about?

 

[smokedout]

I thought you were comparing it to identifying a 4 year old as gay I'm not sure how you do that. I've not actually seen anyone identifying their 3/4/5 year old as gay whereas I have seen parents and teachers identifying very young children as transgender.

no I was comparing your belief that by treating a child as transgender you will turn them transgender with the kind of bollocks people who are homophobic used to come out with

because the inference is if that you treat a child who's transgender as not transgender then you will cure them - you are insisting parents should police the very gender roles you claim to oppose in case they turn their child transgender

and what you are also saying, what you are always also saying, is that transgenderism as transgender people descibe it, doesn't really exist, it can be induced, and taken away, but its not a really real part of identity, its just a fad, phase or aberration

 

[8ball]

which bit are you talking about?
View attachment 84923

The bit that says something completely different to what you said it did (perhaps unintentionally, since you seem to have not spotted it).

ie. quoted bit of #1506

 

[spanglechick]

which bit are you talking about?

View attachment 84923

That quote doesn't say what you think it does.

 

[Thora]

no I was comparing your belief that by treating a child as transgender you will turn them transgender

I haven't said treating a child as transgender will turn them transgender. I have suggested that treating a child as transgender when they may be in the 80+% of children who grow out of their feelings of dysphoria may be confusing/distressing for a child, and also that I have concerns about the effects of blocking puberty in one of those children who would have otherwise grown out of it.

 

[bimble]

sorry don't know what you mean. Anyway, just to be clear, I'm glad my cousin is getting the hormone blockers. But 14 is very different from 4, obvioulsy.

 

[8ball]

I haven't said treating a child as transgender will turn them transgender. I have suggested that treating a child as transgender when they may be in the 80+% of children who grow out of their feelings of dysphoria may be confusing/distressing for a child, and also that I have concerns about the effects of blocking puberty in one of those children who would have otherwise grown out of it.

If someone has a kid they think might grow up to be gay then (generally) they don't force them into a 'gay' bracket but give them time to grow and develop and make their own mind up. I don't see why you would demand rigid cross-gender roles in child showing some gender nonconformance. You just let them know that the way they feel isn't something shameful and sick, and give them space to develop, don't you?

 

[8ball]

sorry don't know what you mean. Anyway, just to be clear, I'm glad my cousin is getting the hormone blockers.

What I mean is that the hormone blockers, to the best of knowledge at this time, do not harm future fertility. If you stop taking them, then puberty kicks in.

If, however, you either use cross-hormones (not stated in your literature tbf) or gender reassignment surgery (stated in your link) from a pre-pubescent paused state, then obviously there will not be the change to store any sperm just in case.

Immature eggs can be harvested, and brought to maturity with hormones, since they are present from birth. Sperm are more of a production line deal.

 

[smokedout]

I haven't said treating a child as transgender will turn them transgender. I have suggested that treating a child as transgender when they may be in the 80+% of children who grow out of their feelings of dysphoria may be confusing/distressing for a child, and also that I have concerns about the effects of blocking puberty in one of those children who would have otherwise grown out of it.

here's what the medical practice is

Most treatments offered at this stage are psychological, rather than medical or surgical. This is because the majority of children with suspected gender dysphoria do not have the condition once they have reached puberty. Psychological support, therefore, offers young people and their families a chance to discuss their thoughts and receive support to help them cope with the emotional distress of the condition, without rushing into more drastic treatments.

they don't give 80% of children who experience dysphoria hormone blockers, they give them to teenagers, who want them, and who have shown consistent signs of gender dysphoria throughout their lives

 

[Thora]

If someone has a kid they think might grow up to be gay then (generally) they don't force them into a 'gay' bracket but give them time to grow and develop and make their own mind up. I don't see why you would demand rigid cross-gender roles in child showing some gender nonconformance. You just let them know that the way they feel isn't something shameful and sick, and give them space to develop, don't you?

Yes, I would. But I also wouldn't call them transgender and I don't know that I would give my own children puberty blockers.

 

[8ball]

Yes, I would. But I also wouldn't call them transgender and I don't know that I would give my own children puberty blockers.

Well, you wouldn't call them transgender at the age of 4 since they mostly wouldn't be. It's when there is serious danger of a child with well-established gender dysmorphia and the attendant aversion to their body having to go through puberty that you might want to put things on pause.

 

[spanglechick]

sorry don't know what you mean. Anyway, just to be clear, I'm glad my cousin is getting the hormone blockers. But 14 is very different from 4, obvioulsy.

The puberty blockers only harm future sperm production if the trans girl keeps taking them. If they stop taking them, because they decide to develop male secondary sexual characteristics, they will develop mature sperm (as far as anyone knows).

The caveat in the report is that trans women who did not take hormone blockers before puberty can decide to freeze their sperm so that, as an adult woman they may have a chance of parenting their own genetic children, though some form of fertility treatment, and with a cis woman carrying the child. Trans women who took hormone blockers pre puberty, and who continue to do so, will not have this option.

 

[Thora]

Well, you wouldn't call them transgender at the age of 4 since they mostly wouldn't be. It's when there is serious danger of a child with well-established gender dysmorphia and the attendant aversion to their body having to go through puberty that you might want to put things on pause.

My original point was that when children of this age are considered transgender, rather than their behaviour being seen as normal childhood gender nonconformity or even gender dysphoria that will probably pass, that in itself may cause significant distress. Being transgender isn't a phase that people grow out of.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

My original point was that when children of this age are considered transgender, rather than their behaviour being seen as normal childhood gender nonconformity or even gender dysphoria that will probably pass, that in itself may cause significant distress. Being transgender isn't a phase that people grow out of.

Distress to whom? Surely the point of this is that it is something that comes from the child/adolescent, not something imposed on them.

 

[8ball]

Being transgender isn't a phase that people grow out of.

No, but early on it seems we don't know how to tell. So unless something major changes on that score there would not be a reason to consider a 4 year old transgender.

 

[Thora]

Distress to whom? Surely the point of this is that it is something that comes from the child/adolescent, not something imposed on them.

If your parents, teachers, friends are very sure you are one thing, and you are not so sure or think you might be something else, do you not think a child might find that distressing? If your mum was sure you were born in the wrong body I think that might influence your feelings about your body.

 

[smokedout]

If your parents, teachers, friends are very sure you are one thing, and you are not so sure or think you might be something else, do you not think a child might find that distressing? If your mum was sure you were born in the wrong body I think that might influence your feelings about your body.

If your parents, teachers, friends are very sure you are one thing, and you are not so sure or think you might be something else, do you not think a child might find that distressing?

quoting that twice, because irony

 

[Thora]

I guess essentially I share some of the concerns outlined by the psychologist from the Gender Identity service mentioned in the Guardian article.

“The idea was, if you could reduce that distress, then there would be room for young people to really explore the less reversible interventions: cross-sex hormones,” she explains. “But there’s also a lot of pressure to introduce cross-sex hormones at a younger age. It’s currently at 16. For some, there’s a real wish to bring it down to 14.” When I ask who she means, she says Mermaids and the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (Gires), a transgender advocacy charity based in the UK. “Really big changes like that should not be considered outside proper research protocols. We just don’t have the evidence.”

Carmichael says it’s very important for young people to experience some of their own puberty. “The blocker is said to be completely reversible, which is disingenuous because nothing’s completely reversible. It might be that the introduction of natal hormones [those you are born with] at puberty has an impact on the trajectory of gender dysphoria.” Even though the idea of experiencing any “natural” puberty might horrify the Kings and the Wilsons, by inhibiting it completely Tom and Julia might be denied the chance to explore fully who they are.

The available evidence suggests that most prepubescent children with gender dysphoria will have a different outcome in adulthood, Carmichael says: “The most common would be one around sexuality, rather than gender identity.” In her experience, they are more likely to be LGB than T.

When Carmichael took up her role in 2009, it was rare for children to be socially transitioned in primary school. Now it’s becoming the norm. What are the implications if only a small proportion will end up as transgender adults?

“If a lot has been invested in living in a gender role, then, potentially, it is difficult for young people to say: ‘Well, actually I don’t feel like that any more.’ Parents rightly want to support their child. Parents report that many young people who do make a social transition are much happier, that they’re functioning much better – which is why there isn’t a right and wrong. It’s about that child being able to carry on with general development, be in school. If transitioning facilitates that, then that’s positive, but how do we keep in mind a diversity of outcomes?” She pauses. “It’s really hard, a real challenge.”

The answer, she suggests, might lie in understanding gender as a spectrum, not a set of binary categories. “It would be great if society were more open to a range of presentations. I think if we could break down some of the gender stereotypes around boys and girls being divided in school the whole time, then that would be positive.”

 

[smokedout]

I guess essentially I share some of the concerns outlined by the psychologist from the Gender Identity service mentioned in the Guardian article.

the psychologist who leads a team responsible for referring children to hormone blockers? she's talking about a diversity of outcomes, you're not