Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[Thora]

I mean I'm not a terf but I find it hard to celebrate 12 year olds being given hormone blockers as some sort of liberation, it's not it's a reinforcement of gender norms under a neo liberal ideology.

I find this quite worrying, that gender noncompliant children are being medicalised. I think back to a friend at primary school who was like George from the Famous Five, used a gender neutral name, wore boys clothes, played football, wanted to be a boy. I think that was thought of as more normal 20 years ago than it is now (have read several mumsnet threads recently about transgender 5 year olds) and she grew up to be a gay woman rather than a trans man. I wonder how things would have turned out if she had been given puberty blockers.

 

[smokedout]

Do you think people have always taken transgendered people seriously? The point about her lying is not very significant.

there is a huge wealth a commonality of experience of transgender people spread across both time and cultures, a vast body of testimony of lived experiences of bodily dysmorphia that most say goes back to a very early age, many, many tragic suicides because people were unable to cope with this dysmorphia and millions of people both in the past and now who have lived their lives trying to suppress feelings of gender and bodily dysmorphia. There is also a well-evidenced track record of successful treatment in the form of gender transition.

its really not comparable to Rachel Dolezal, or otherkin, furries, or any other current sub-cultural fads and as such the only real reason to make that comparison is to undermine the experiences of transgender people - a bit like when gay people were portrayed as wanton self-indulgent hedonists whose sexuality wasn't, or couldn't be, really real

 

[bimble]

I find this quite worrying, that gender noncompliant children are being medicalised. I think back to a friend at primary school who was like George from the Famous Five, used a gender neutral name, wore boys clothes, played football, wanted to be a boy. I think that was thought of as more normal 20 years ago than it is now (have read several mumsnet threads recently about transgender 5 year olds) and she grew up to be a gay woman rather than a trans man. I wonder how things would have turned out if she had been given puberty blockers.

Yep. I find this hard to admit but when I was told the news that my first cousin once removed has started hormone therapy as step one of the ftm transitioning process, it made me just hope very much that despite being so young they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is the right thing for them & that they will not ever regret it. There are it seems lots of people out there who do go on to have second thoughts, advice pages on which bits are reversible which are not. That must be very scary stuff to be dealing with, especially if you're 14.

 

[Knotted]

its really not comparable to Rachel Dolezal

Don't tell me that. Tell revol68.

I'm sick of these arguments about transgender that apply just as well to blacking up. It's a social phenomenon but be nice and understanding about it. It's politically correct bollocks.

 

[smokedout]

Don't tell me that. Tell revol68.

was just making the point generally, wasn't meant to be directed at anyone specific

 

[Reno]

I find this quite worrying, that gender noncompliant children are being medicalised. I think back to a friend at primary school who was like George from the Famous Five, used a gender neutral name, wore boys clothes, played football, wanted to be a boy. I think that was thought of as more normal 20 years ago than it is now (have read several mumsnet threads recently about transgender 5 year olds) and she grew up to be a gay woman rather than a trans man. I wonder how things would have turned out if she had been given puberty blockers.

They don't just hand these out to tomboys like they are Smarties. Hormone blockers are given to children who are in acute psychological distress because of by their gender dysmorphia and only after thorough psychological evaluation. The effects are reversible when stopping the treatment.

 

[bi0boy]

Yep. I find this hard to admit but when I was told the news that my first cousin once removed has started hormone therapy as step one of the ftm transitioning process, it made me just hope very much that despite being so young they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is the right thing for them & that they will not ever regret it. There are it seems lots of people out there who do go on to have second thoughts, advice pages on which bits are reversible which are not. That must be very scary stuff to be dealing with, especially if you're 14.

Isn't that the whole point of hormone blockers, that they are a temporary pause allowing the person time to have "second thoughts".

 

[Thora]

They don't just hand these out to tomboys like they are Smarties. Hormone blockers are given to children who are in acute psychological distress because of by their gender dysmorphia and only after thorough psychological evaluation. The effects are reversible when stopping the treatment.

That certainly doesn't mean that it's risk free, or even that we know what the long term risks are. I seem to remember reading that most childhood gender dysphoria does not persist into adulthood - so what effect does delaying puberty have? Is gender dysphoria more or less likely to persist in children who are treated with puberty blockers?

 

[bimble]

ok. that's good to know, I didn't understand that what my (once removed) cousin is being given is just providing a temporary pause.
It looks like testosterone is reversible anyway, with time.
FTM detransitioning experience—quitting “T” and getting back to life as a woman

 

[Reno]

That certainly doesn't mean that it's risk free, or even that we know what the long term risks are. I seem to remember reading that most childhood gender dysphoria does not persist into adulthood - so what effect does delaying puberty have? Is gender dysphoria more or less likely to persist in children who are treated with puberty blockers?

Taking the most alarmist stance possible on behalf of something you "seem to remember" is not very persuasive. Most children experiment with ideas of gender and sexuality at some point of their lives. That is different from genuine gender dysmorphia, which if left ignored or denied has a good chance of leading to a suicide.

 

[killer b]

I don't think suggesting giving children hormone treatment isn't risk free is an alarmist stance is it?

 

[bi0boy]

I don't think suggesting giving children hormone treatment isn't risk free is an alarmist stance is it?

Measles vaccine isn't risk free either...

 

[Reno]

I don't think suggesting giving children hormone treatment isn't risk free is an alarmist stance is it?

No medical intervention is 100% risk free. That doesn't mean that after weighing up the pros and cons, we shouldn't apply them. It's suggesting that any child who exeriments with gender roles could be given them which is alarmist.

 

[killer b]

no. are the two comparable?

 

[bi0boy]

no. are the two comparable?

No but the anti-vaccine and anti-hormone blockers crowds are comparable in their blindness to the evidence of medical outcomes.

 

[killer b]

Well that's certainly going to win them over to your way of thinking.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I do wish someone would edit the title of this thread

Changed now.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I mean I'm not a terf but I find it hard to celebrate 12 year olds being given hormone blockers as some sort of liberation, it's not it's a reinforcement of gender norms under a neo liberal ideology

umm

i'm acquainted with a few trans people but don't really claim to be expert.

although i'm not sure anyone who isn't trans can ever really 'get it'

but...

my understanding is that hormone blockers effectively put a hold on puberty, and effectively allow that young person to keep their options open an bit longer.

the alternative is to let that young person go through puberty and develop further in to being an adult in what they - at that moment in time - feel is the 'wrong' body / gender, and i'm not sure that's entirely helpful either.

 

[laptop]

No but the anti-vaccine and anti-hormone blockers crowds are comparable in their blindness to the evidence of medical outcomes.

To be fair, if there is an "anti-hormone blocker crowd" I don't think it's represented on this thread, and I think its core is likely to be religiously-motivated straight-up anti-transsexual.

 

[bimble]

Changed now.

leaving the 'hate' bit in though, for some reason. The very first response to the OP was a good one i thought..

I don't think Greer hates transgender people, isn't it possible she just doesn't think they are women, but does not hate them?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

leaving the 'hate' bit in though, for some reason. The very first response to the OP was a good one i thought..

That might hold water if she hadn't come out with the dismissive, patronising, intentionally hurtful crap she did come out with. She is dismissive of the experience and its significance.

 

[bimble]

Ye, ok. I take it back - have just read some truly vile stuff, from a recently deceased radical feminist called Mary Daly, unequivocally hate speech against trans people, no two ways about it, and I'm sure she wasn't/isn't alone.

 

[laptop]

Mary Daly

Her of the Wickedary?

Not my place to say this as a non-woman, but it is my place to say it as a writer: you might as well take Burroughs or Bukowski as representative of all writers.

 

[toggle]

Don't know. I don't think the analogy works, tbh.

your original assertion dosen't work any more or less.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

your original assertion dosen't work any more or less.

Gender identity is a different kind of thing from racial identity. So I don't agree with you. I know of no human society in any time or place that hasn't assigned male/female to children. Given that, there is a case for a selection pressure for the evolution of the propensity to look for that kind of thing from birth. This is entirely different from race - there are no useful points of comparison, imo.

 

[iona]

ok. that's good to know, I didn't understand that what my (once removed) cousin is being given is just providing a temporary pause.
It looks like testosterone is reversible anyway, with time.
FTM detransitioning experience—quitting “T” and getting back to life as a woman

Hormone blockers used to delay puberty aren't the same thing as hormones, eg. T. Some changes caused by T will change back over time after stopping it, but not all.

 

[Shirl]

I like the new thread title

 

[toggle]

I don't think suggesting giving children hormone treatment isn't risk free is an alarmist stance is it?

hormone treatment, or treatment to block hormone production?


lets seperate the two shall we? because we are talkling about 2 different things. one is blocking the hormones that would cause the development of an adult body that does not suit the young person's perception of themselves, the other is to give hormone treatments that cause the development of an adult body.

Gender identity is a different kind of thing from racial identity. So I don't agree with you. I know of no human society in any time or place that hasn't assigned male/female to children. Given that, there is a case for a selection pressure for the evolution of the propensity to look for that kind of thing from birth. This is entirely different from race - there are no useful points of comparison, imo.

so how is it possible to raise a child without awareness of the community they belong to?

a belief that you lack a race, generally comes from those in a currently and historically dominant culture. those who have maintained their cultural supremacism.

it's not white power supremacism where your race/culture/ethnicity is the top of the food chain, but more white liberal supremacism that your race/ethnicity/culture is default. lacking a race, a culture, a cultural/national mythology, only recognizing the existence of these in someone identified as other.

 

[revol68]

umm

i'm acquainted with a few trans people but don't really claim to be expert.

although i'm not sure anyone who isn't trans can ever really 'get it'

but...

my understanding is that hormone blockers effectively put a hold on puberty, and effectively allow that young person to keep their options open an bit longer.

the alternative is to let that young person go through puberty and develop further in to being an adult in what they - at that moment in time - feel is the 'wrong' body / gender, and i'm not sure that's entirely helpful either.

Yeah but like Thora said there is a danger in reifying gender more by saying "well you are in the wrong body" rather than there being space and acceptance for people being able to move beyond gender roles assigned to the body they have.

My bestfriend had a similar childhood as Thora's friend, she played with boys, dressed like a boy, she's told me that if someone had said to her when she was 12 years old did she feel like a boy she'd have said yes. They didn't cos her family were cool with her being who she was as a girl (she has lesbian aunts etc) and she's a very happy lesbian.

 

[Reno]

Yeah but like Thora said there is a danger in reifying gender more by saying "well you are in the wrong body" rather than there being space and acceptance for people being able to move beyond gender roles assigned to the body they have.

My bestfriend had a similar childhood as Thora's friend, she played with boys, dressed like a boy, she's told me that if someone had said to her when she was 12 years old did she feel like a boy she'd have said yes. They didn't cos her family were cool with her being who she was as a girl (she has lesbian aunts etc) and she's a very happy lesbian.

That's still different from being traumatised by your body. I was a little gay boy who played with dolls, preferred to hang out with the girls and accasionally wore mums dresses. I wanted to be a princess at a fancy dress party ffs (my parents compromised on prince) I had no problem with the body I was in though.

Btw my own experience growing up makes me call bullshit on the assertion by some that gender is entirely a sociological construct as I went exactly the opposite from how I was supposed to develop from being a toddler onwards. My parents were homophobic and they tried everything to butch me up (football club )and keep me away from dolls, kiddie drag, etc and yet that's what I gravitated towards. If we are all slotted into our society imposed