Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[Mation]

a belief that you lack a race, generally comes from those in a currently and historically dominant culture. those who have maintained their cultural supremacism.

First, apologies. I'm only dipping into this thread (that makes my heart sink every time I see it revived [not on your account, though!]), so I may not have the context right.

I think that the belief that you have a race only comes from other people telling you that you do. Before that you're just a person. And there are no behaviours/norms that, within your local culture, will mark you out as having a race. That seems to me to be different from, on a very local level, being assigned a gender, which will happen within your very local societal group.

 

[spanglechick]

The two transgender women I am closest to were in relationships with women before they transitioned, and are now lesbians. Gender dysphoria is not the same as being homosexual, not at all.

 

[revol68]

That's still different from being traumatised by your body. I was a little gay boy who played with dolls, preferred to hang out with the girls and accasionally wore mums dresses. I wanted to be a princess at a fancy dress party ffs (my parents compromised on prince) I had no problem with the body I was in though.

Btw my own experience growing up makes me call bullshit on the assertion by some that gender is entirely a sociological construct as I went exactly the opposite from how I was supposed to develop from being a toddler onwards. My parents were homophobic and they tried everything to butch me up (football club )and keep me away from dolls, kiddie drag, etc and yet that's what I gravitated towards. If we are all slotted into our society imposed

Yeah but the being traumatised by your body is obviously socially mediated, we wouldn't buy into the idea that black people bleaching their skin have a medical condition, instead we'd understand it as a product of racism etc.

You're experience doesn't undermine the idea of gender being a social construct, whatever interests you had, whether they were tied to you innately or socialised it wouldn't matter, say you had a "natural" tendency towards things gendered female the issue isn't that you had these interests, it's that they are socially defined in a gendered manner.

 

[revol68]

The two transgender women I am closest to were in relationships with women before they transitioned, and are now lesbians. Gender dysphoria is not the same as being homosexual, not at all.

What, who suggested it was?

 

[spanglechick]

What, who suggested it was?

Examples were given of young people who it is conjectured may have been misdiagnosed as being transgender, when actually, when they understood their sexuality, no longer seemed to be trans.

 

[revol68]

Examples were given of young people who it is conjectured may have been misdiagnosed as being transgender, when actually, when they understood their sexuality, no longer seemed to be trans.

eh what? No the examples weren't to do with their sexuality, they were to do with their interests and dress being gendered masculine and her saying that if someone had asked her at 12 if she felt more like a boy and would like to be one she'd have said yes.

the stereotype of lesbians being more into masculine things might have helped her in so much as it provided a recognised "identity" for her and her aunt and her various partners provided examples of women who stood outside of gendered norms.

 

[spanglechick]

eh what? No the examples weren't to do with their sexuality, they were to do with their interests and dress being gendered masculine and her saying that if someone had asked her at 12 if she felt more like a boy and would like to be one she'd have said yes.

So why mention her sexuality? Not to mention the sexuality of her aunts... Seems odd info to include if you weren't implying that her sexuality and gender identity were somehow related.

 

[purenarcotic]

The two transgender women I am closest to were in relationships with women before they transitioned, and are now lesbians. Gender dysphoria is not the same as being homosexual, not at all.

This. The trope of the tomboy becoming a lesbian is really unhelpful. Not all lesbians are butch, not all gay men are camp and effeminate. Who knew?!

 

[smokedout]

So why mention her sexuality? Not to mention the sexuality of her aunts... Seems odd info to include if you weren't implying that her sexuality and gender identity were somehow related.

tbf I don't think he was doing that, I think he was doing omg if someone felt like that today they'd be pumped full of hormones and turned into a boy, cos thats how it happens, bit tomboyish and before you know where you are your growing a beard

 

[purenarcotic]

tbf I don't think he was doing that, I think he was doing omg if someone felt like that today they'd be pumped full of hormones and turned into a boy, cos thats how it happens, bit tomboyish and before you know where you are your growing a beard

This is not what happens at all. How melodramatic.

 

[smokedout]

This is not what happens at all. How melodramatic.

I was being sarcastic

 

[bimble]

You're experience doesn't undermine the idea of gender being a social construct, whatever interests you had, whether they were tied to you innately or socialised it wouldn't matter, say you had a "natural" tendency towards things gendered female the issue isn't that you had these interests, it's that they are socially defined in a gendered manner.

Is seems a bit sad, but clearly felt to be necessary, that the current NHS guidelines feel the need to state the following (in the section about children and young people):

"There is a range of opinion among professionals about the treatment of children and young people who show atypical gender behaviour. . . In this context, it is important to note that gender non-conformity is not the same as Gender Dysphoria. Gender non-conformity refers to the extent to which someone’s gender identity, role or expression differs from the expected cultural norms. ."
http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Transhea...guide-for-gps-and-other-health-care-staff.pdf

 

[Thora]

This. The trope of the tomboy becoming a lesbian is really unhelpful. Not all lesbians are butch, not all gay men are camp and effeminate. Who knew?!

The girl I went to school with isn't the slightest bit 'butch'.

 

[purenarcotic]

The girl I went to school with isn't the slightest bit 'butch'.

That's my point.

 

[Thora]

Also I can imagine a gender nonconforming 4 year old who is told that they are transgender and born in the wrong body may well hate their body by puberty.

 

[spanglechick]

Also I can imagine a gender nonconforming 4 year old who is told that they are transgender and born in the wrong body may well hate their body by puberty.

Who is telling gender non conforming four year olds that they are transgender? Do you believe in gender dysphoria (as being separate from gender non conforming)?

 

[Thora]

Who is telling gender non conforming four year olds that they are transgender? Do you believe in gender dysphoria (as being separate from gender non conforming)?

Are you saying there aren't children of 4 being identified as transgender?

 

[smokedout]

Also I can imagine a gender nonconforming 4 year old who is told that they are transgender and born in the wrong body may well hate their body by puberty.

its true, they lock them in a room and scream you're transgender at them over and over again until they agree to take hormones

 

[smokedout]

Are you saying there aren't children of 4 being identified as transgender?

why don't you read what actually happens: Gender dysphoria - Symptoms - NHS Choices

 

[Thora]

its true, they lock them in a room and scream you're transgender at them over and over again until they agree to take hormones

Who are 'they'

 

[smokedout]

other transsexuals mostly, recruiting

 

[Thora]

I was thinking more of parents/families, and I guess as an extension of that nurseries and schools.

 

[smokedout]

i think its on the national curriculum now, catch a boy playing with dolls and you have to tell her she's transgender

 

[smokedout]

its the law

 

[8ball]

i think its on the national curriculum now, catch a boy playing with dolls and you have to tell her she's transgender

 

[Mation]

Are you saying there aren't children of 4 being identified as transgender?

what on earth are you on about??

 

[Thora]

i think its on the national curriculum now, catch a boy playing with dolls and you have to tell her she's transgender

Yes, that's exactly it.

But, more realistically, I have read articles and seen posts on parenting forums where parents describe their 3/4/5 year olds as transgender and want them to transition at school. I'm on various early years discussion groups and have seen discussions from teachers and practitioners about very young children being trans. I think gender is generally more rigorously policed for young children in terms of gendered clothes, toys, activities and attitudes than I remember in my own childhood.

I looked for the article I remembered reading about the number of children with gender dysphoria who go on to have it as adults http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/12/transgender-children-have-to-respect-who-he-is
The Gender Identity service at the Tavistock are saying 16%. I don't think it is ridiculous to wonder what impact delaying puberty has on the children whose dysphoria wouldn't have persisted past puberty.

 

[Thora]

what on earth are you on about??

I'm saying that if you believe your 4 year old is transgender, and treat them as such, that might have an impact on how they see themselves.

 

[Mation]

I'm saying that if you believe your 4 year old is transgender, and treat them as such, that might have an impact on how they see themselves.

It's certainly worth considering.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

dunno really.

there is still (possibly less than there used to be) a lot of confusion out there between being gay and being transgender - some people do seem to think that the ambition of 'effeminate' gay men is to be/become a woman (and vice versa for 'tomboys') - and i guess some young people do get this impression as well, and might feel "i don't feel comfortable with being a stereotype girl, maybe i ought to be a boy" (or vice versa) rather than just accepting that they are a non stereotype of the gender they are (and being accepted as such)

as i've said before, i don't think i entirely 'get' the transgender thing, in that i can't identify with feeling that the body i'm in is wrong, so i'm not sure i'm qualified to say what is right or wrong here.

but i don't think going any distance down the trans path is something anyone is going to do lightly.

is there really any evidence that "the system" has become too eager to shove young people who don't seem entirely comfortable with the roles society seems to define for 'their' gender into going down the trans path?

if so, is that better, worse, or just a different sort of wrong to the traditional approach of punishing / disapproving of kids for playing with the 'wrong' toys or wanting to dress the 'wrong' colour, and forcing them to conform to the 'correct' appearance and behaviour?

or is what seems to be being dismissed as PC gawn mad simply letting children express themselves and keep their options open a bit?

is being trans really something you can only know what you want when you reach a certain age? i'm not convinced it is - some people argue that kids shouldn't even contemplate the possibility of not being straight until they reach adulthood - despite the fact that heterosexual norms are set out for kids at a fairly early age.

i'm really not sure what the answer is.

ideally, the world would have far less messages about gender identity / roles, and kids of both genders would grow up thinking they can dress how they like, follow whatever interests / career aspirations they like, and when they feel so inclined and reach legal age to do so, shag whatever gender of consenting partner they feel like at any particular time (there's also too much pressure to identify either as straight or gay, and life's not that simple, but that's for a different thread) - but i still don't think that would stop transgender people existing...