Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[Thora]

No, but we aren't discussing putting a man into a women's prison. We're discussing putting a woman into a women's prison.

Aren't prisons sex segregated rather than gender segregated?

 

[purenarcotic]

Aren't prisons sex segregated rather than gender segregated?

I suppose so, yes. Perhaps that needs re-examining.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

its doable, it regularly fails in the case of particularly heinous nonces because of complicity.

the suggestion of an attatched unit is a worthwhile one. Realistically its not going to be handling vast numbers is it

Wonder if it's less easy to do these days though. Budgets and staffing in HMPS are of course as pressurised as in any other public service, and probably much more so. No one ever lost an election because they made prisons grimmer.

 

[Athos]

Well they usually would because you'd normally need your birth certificate amended (through a GRC) to go to the prison of your gender, which requires not only transitioning but a lot more besides. This case has really only come about because of that issue.

Whether, as some rad fems I read last night were suggesting, this would now set a precedent for that to change I don't know.

This is dangerous ground though, becasue it raises the question of vulnerable women in other women-only spaces, and whether trans women should need a certificate to enter. And, if not, why not? In my opinion, they oughtn't. But the parallels are there.

 

[Thora]

I suppose so, yes. Perhaps that needs re-examining.

Do you not think there are good reasons for sex segregation in some circumstances?

 

[Thora]

Where should transmen go? Surely they would be at risk in a men's prison too?

 

[purenarcotic]

Do you not think there are good reasons for sex segregation in some circumstances?

I think there are good reasons for men and women to have separate spaces, absolutely. I'm not so sure using the genitalia we are born with is an effective way of doing this anymore.

 

[Citizen66]

Prison Governors take decisions for many different reasons. And, whilst I agree with you that it's likely she will be segregated (albeit that under rule 45 she's unlikely to have no contact with other prisoners), it's by no means certain (as you acknowledged). As such, it's quite possible that other vulnerable women could be fearful of the prospect of sharing a cell with her. In my opinion, they ought not to be dismissed as bigots for those fears. Do you disagree?

Has anybody dismissed them as bigots? It would have been daft of me to claim to know what will happen with any kind of certainty; not least because I'm not fully versed in the internal mechanisms of British prisons, that can often appear to work on spite rather than any rigid guidelines at times.

 

[butchersapron]

Wonder if it's less easy to do these days though. Budgets and staffing in HMPS are of course as pressurised as in any other public service, and probably much more so. No one ever lost an election because they made prisons grimmer.

How do you square this with your earlier naivety about all concerned being sure to do the right thing if only left alone?

 

[Citizen66]

Where should transmen go? Surely they would be at risk in a men's prison too?

Cis men are at risk in men's prison also coincidentally enough. Surely the argument here is that she was more at risk.

 

[Thora]

Cis men are at risk in men's prison also coincidentally enough. Surely the argument here is that she was more at risk.

Isn't a transman at least as much at risk?

 

[Athos]

Has anybody dismissed them as bigots?

Yes, many trans activists dismiss as bigots (and thereby seek to silence) any woman who does not always react to trans women in exactly the same way as they react to cis women, no matter what their reasons for so doing might be. They maintain that there is no scope for legitimate debate, and that the issue of self-identification alone is determinative.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

How do you square this with your earlier naivety about all concerned being sure to do the right thing if only left alone?

Completely different. I trust NOMS and HMPS more than I do Urban, Fleet St and Twitter to make the right judgement about risk and reassurance to all prisoners affected. Expertise and judgement isn't going to be affected all that much by the current level of resource. Separately, there's the operational question of how segregation practices are affected by reduced staffing. It might mean it is less reliable than in Dottie's day; it might mean that segregated imprisonment is more like solitary confinement and therefore unsuitable for a sentence of any significant length. Again, HMPS managers are better placed to make a call on that than posters who are trying to maintain their doctrinal purity on gender issues rather than accepting that this is a pragmatic issue of balancing multiple risks and concerns, with no easy or attractive answers.

 

[butchersapron]

Completely different. I trust NOMS and HMPS more than I do Urban, Fleet St and Twitter to make the right judgement about risk and reassurance to all prisoners affected. Expertise and judgement isn't going to be affected all that much by the current level of resource. Separately, there's the operational question of how segregation practices are affected by reduced staffing. It might mean it is less reliable than in Dottie's day; it might mean that segregated imprisonment is more like solitary confinement and therefore unsuitable for a sentence of any significant length. Again, HMPS managers are better placed to make a call on that than posters who are trying to maintain their doctrinal purity on gender issues rather than accepting that this is a pragmatic issue of balancing multiple risks and concerns, with no easy or attractive answers.

I get it, under resourced, over pressured, ill experienced authorities can be trusted to do the right thing when it suits your argument. Any attempts to address the first three problems are just lefty meddling that will make the situation worse.

Any do you bother? What do you get out of this?

 

[Citizen66]

Isn't a transman at least as much at risk?

Most probably. Being trans places both at higher risk.

 

[Citizen66]

Yes, many trans activists dismiss as bigots (and thereby seek to silence) any woman who does not always react to trans women in exactly the same way as they react to cis women, no matter what their reasons for so doing might be. They maintain that there is no scope for legitimate debate, and that the issue of self-identification alone is determinative.

I thought you were talking about this (recent) discussion specifically?

 

[Athos]

I thought you were talking about this (recent) discussion specifically?

No, I spoke about the prison issue and the wider discussion of trans issues. That's here and elsewhere, in the immediate past, and further back.

By the way, do you think women in such circumstances are bigots for feeling that way?

 

[Pickman's model]

I think there are good reasons for men and women to have separate spaces, absolutely. I'm not so sure using the genitalia we are born with is an effective way of doing this anymore.

how would you have the nhs do it?

 

[smokedout]

Aren't prisons sex segregated rather than gender segregated?

there are mixed gender prisons all over the world, do you really think it is beyond the capacity of the UK penal system to accommodate this situation whilst minimising the risk - prisons carry out risk assessments, there will be far more frightening and dangerous prisoners than Tara to worry about. this is a bit like when you warned letting trans women into women's refuge's would terrify the non-trans residents and make them unsafe spaces and then we found out that trans women have been accepted into womens refuges for a long time without anyone particularly giving a shit except you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why are you more concerned about the aggressor than her victims?

Because in the case of the findings of common assault, and of battery, the degree of physical violence necessitating the charge is low, and doesn't warrant detention in an environment that could likely* see the aggressor violently sexually-assaulted multiple times in a mens' prison in the 6 weeks she was due to serve there.

*I say "likely" as during my time working for the Prisons Dept, violent sexual assault happened to every transexual detained, and the only "safe place" for them to go is to be detained in isolation on the punishment block, which has its' own problems.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What do we know? If she's not going to get kalied she's not likely to be violent, is she? As for the rest, it's mere conjecture.

It's conjecture based on having worked within the prisons system, and knowing prior outcomes.

 

[bluescreen]

Fair enough. (It still bothers me that we are talking about a real person while we indulge in mediaeval disputations.)

 

[Thora]

there are mixed gender prisons all over the world, do you really think it is beyond the capacity of the UK penal system to accommodate this situation whilst minimising the risk - prisons carry out risk assessments, there will be far more frightening and dangerous prisoners than Tara to worry about. this is a bit like when you warned letting trans women into women's refuge's would terrify the non-trans residents and make them unsafe spaces and then we found out that trans women have been accepted into womens refuges for a long time without anyone particularly giving a shit except you.

Yes, I do think women should be able to access sex segregated spaces, especially when they are vulnerable or have already suffered male violence.

 

[bluescreen]

Thora, that begs the question of how you define 'women'.

 

[Thora]

Thora, that begs the question of how you define 'women'.

I don't think that's something we're likely to reach a consensus on.

 

[ViolentPanda]

She's in the news. What governor isn't going to take every precaution plus some to ensure the story doesn't explode further?

You're presupposing that there are extra precautions that can be taken. There aren't any beyond isolation, which would require Tara to spend 6 weeks, 24/7, in a cell or a postage-stamp "exercise yard", surrounded by Prison Officers who will not communicate except to give orders. Even a couple of weeks has been known to have severe psychological effects.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Quite possibly, but that's not to say that some women might have concerns about the prospect of sharing a cell with her, until such time as her segregation is confirmed.

She'd be detained in an induction cell on arrival. No sharing until dispersal within the prison is finalised.

 

[Athos]

She'd be detained in an induction cell on arrival. No sharing until dispersal within the prison is finalised.

I know. But my point was that, until her segregation was confirmed, other women already in that prison might be fearful of the prospect of having tio share with her (not that they would have to share with her until segregation).

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well they usually would because you'd normally need your birth certificate amended (through a GRC) to go to the prison of your gender, which requires not only transitioning but a lot more besides. This case has really only come about because of that issue.

Whether, as some rad fems I read last night were suggesting, this would now set a precedent for that to change I don't know.

More likely that issues will continue to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis (apart from anything else, it leaves the Prisons Minister and the Home Secretary less open to hostages-to-fortune, than a sensible policy would ).

 

[ViolentPanda]

I know. But my point was that, until her segregation was confirmed, other women already in that prison might be fearful of the prospect of having tio share with her (not that they would have to share with her until segregation).

Except that other women would be aware that given the publicity, the place most likely that Tara to be detained in would be either the VPU or the "punishment block", both of which are one-to-a-cell.