Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[Citizen66]

No, I spoke about the prison issue and the wider discussion of trans issues. That's here and elsewhere, in the immediate past, and further back.

By the way, do you think women in such circumstances are bigots for feeling that way?

You know I don't, from the previous discussion.

 

[Athos]

Except that other women would be aware that given the publicity, the place most likely that Tara to be detained in would be either the VPU or the "punishment block", both of which are one-to-a-cell.

Most likely, yes. But that wouldn't necessarily allay the fears of some of the mist vulnerable women prisoners, if, for instance, they have a history of sexual abuse.

 

[Athos]

You know I don't, from the previous discussion.

TERF!

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's lucky that it's a short sentence really. Difficult to belive that segregation is ever 100% effective or achieveable, but it might be managed for just four weeks. One pragmatic suggestion would be that HMPS establishes a dedicated unit attached to a women's nick to handle transitioning prisoners from all over the country. Imprisoning people close to their family is a good thing, but outweighed by the benefits of having a facility for cases like Hudson's - and as emanymton suggests, other cases where the transition is less advanced. That would also mean that the medical staff would be au fait with hormone provision and so on.

Unfortunately, there's barely enough money to construct accessible prison facilities to deal with the rising prison population of geriatrics and disabled people - supply hasn't met demand at any time in the last 25 years - let alone to construct an extra facility to deal solely with trans prisoners. Add to that the fact that few Conservative ministers or MPs would stand behind such a proposal, and along with no money, you can say there's little government political will behind such a scheme.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Unfortunately, there's barely enough money to construct accessible prison facilities to deal with the rising prison population of geriatrics and disabled people - supply hasn't met demand at any time in the last 25 years - let alone to construct an extra facility to deal solely with trans prisoners. Add to that the fact that few Conservative ministers or MPs would stand behind such a proposal, and along with no money, you can say there's little government political will behind such a scheme.

You could perhaps repurpose an existing facility and move everyone else around, as you wouldn't incur as many conversion costs as you would for accessibility. The staff costs of maintaining segregation must be pretty high, so - depending on the number of trans prisoners - the business case might stack up. You're probably right, though, any major change programme is probably a stretch for HMPS right now.

 

[Athos]

You could perhaps repurpose an existing facility and move everyone else around, as you wouldn't incur as many conversion costs as you would for accessibility. The staff costs of maintaining segregation must be pretty high, so - depending on the number of trans prisoners - the business case might stack up. You're probably right, though, any major change programme is probably a stretch for HMPS right now.

Or perhaps they could stop locking people up?

 

[ViolentPanda]

there are mixed gender prisons all over the world, do you really think it is beyond the capacity of the UK penal system to accommodate this situation whilst minimising the risk - prisons carry out risk assessments, there will be far more frightening and dangerous prisoners than Tara to worry about. this is a bit like when you warned letting trans women into women's refuge's would terrify the non-trans residents and make them unsafe spaces and then we found out that trans women have been accepted into womens refuges for a long time without anyone particularly giving a shit except you.

We had mixed gender jails/local prisons in the UK into the first quarter of the 20th century. What is currently the Vulnerable Prisoners' Unit at Wandsworth Prison, for example, was originally the 3-winged Womens' Prison at Wandsworth,separated from the Mens' Prison by a narrow "sterile area and a pair of 12ft mesh fences with a double set of doors between them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Or perhaps they could stop locking people up?

Right-wing governments (I include new Labour govts in this designation on the subject of penal policy) rarely promulgate progressive criminal justice policy. Even the switch to community punishments for juveniles was almost entirely motivated by a) costs, and b) bad publicity regarding the sheer scale of violence in YOIs.

 

[Athos]

Right-wing governments (I include new Labour govts in this designation on the subject of penal policy) rarely promulgate progressive criminal justice policy. Even the switch to community punishments for juveniles was almost entirely motivated by a) costs, and b) bad publicity regarding the sheer scale of violence in YOIs.

Maybe we don't need right-wing governments, then?

 

[laptop]

Looking at Twitter, I see that "TERF" is being applied as a pure term of abuse for anyone the Twitter disagrees with.

But... is it a pure term of abuse - or has it unsurprisingly morphed into an attack on feminism of all kinds (except perhaps the most neoliberal kind)?

 

[Citizen66]

Maybe we don't need right-wing governments, then?

Or governments at all.

 

[smokedout]

Looking at Twitter, I see that "TERF" is being applied as a pure term of abuse for anyone the Twitter disagrees with.

But... is it a pure term of abuse - or has it unsurprisingly morphed into an attack on feminism of all kinds (except perhaps the most neoliberal kind)?

that's not what I see when I look at twitter, I see lots of people defending Greer, lots of people discussing wider problems with identity poltics and a few snide comments in both directions. I haven't seen it used as an attack on feminism of all kinds anywhere, ever, it's a term that most people who aren't feminists have probably never heard of. Why is feminism that recognises trans people more neo-liberal than feminism which excludes them btw?

 

[laptop]

that's not what I see when I look at twitter, I see lots of people defending Greer, lots of people discussing wider problems with identity poltics and a few snide comments in both directions. I haven't seen it used as an attack on feminism of all kinds anywhere, ever, it's a term that most people who aren't feminists have probably never heard of.

I'm not bothered about your perception of the generality of what's being Tweeted.

I'm bothered by a specific use of the "TERF" meme.

 

[smokedout]

so perhaps you can provide some examples of the term being used to attack feminism of all kinds ?

 

[bluescreen]

TERF is a slur.

 

[dylanredefined]

Or perhaps they could stop locking people up?

What do you do with criminals if they keep breaking the law?

 

[bi0boy]

TERF is a slur.

Homophobe is a SLUR

 

[laptop]

TERF is a slur.

TERF - Twitter Search

 

[bluescreen]

I get the point, thanks.

ETA: bi0boy

 

[bluescreen]

'TERF is a slur' is on the bingo card.

 

[cesare]

I've learned something today - apparently Gender Critical Feminists is how Trans-Exclusionary Reactionary Feminists prefer to be termed.

 

[smokedout]

TERF is a slur.

no agenda on that site then. they seem to be largely attacks on those perceived as terfs though, not an attack on feminism completely

 

[iona]

We had mixed gender jails/local prisons in the UK into the first quarter of the 20th century. What is currently the Vulnerable Prisoners' Unit at Wandsworth Prison, for example, was originally the 3-winged Womens' Prison at Wandsworth,separated from the Mens' Prison by a narrow "sterile area and a pair of 12ft mesh fences with a double set of doors between them.

We still do have mixed prisons (in Scotland at least, not sure about the rest of the UK).

 

[Vintage Paw]

I've learned something today - apparently Gender Critical Feminists is how Trans-Exclusionary Reactionary Feminists prefer to be termed.

Which is a sad state of affairs because you can be critical of gender and still support trans people and recognise the need for us all to be allies together.

 

[umop apisdn]

don't talk such tosh

Explain yourself then.

 

[umop apisdn]

Because in the case of the findings of common assault, and of battery, the degree of physical violence necessitating the charge is low, and doesn't warrant detention in an environment that could likely* see the aggressor violently sexually-assaulted multiple times in a mens' prison in the 6 weeks she was due to serve there.

*I say "likely" as during my time working for the Prisons Dept, violent sexual assault happened to every transexual detained, and the only "safe place" for them to go is to be detained in isolation on the punishment block, which has its' own problems.

IMO Tara should be in a women's prison.

I think she deserves to go to prison.

I also think that everyone, everywhere has a right to be safe.

 

[umop apisdn]

Oh well, that gives you free pass to the Daily Mail comments section. Except, not. Not all Romfordians will share your views.

Which views?

 

[bluescreen]

This. It has a simplistic logic but misses the entire point of prison reform:

How about this thought: If the "perp" hadn't "perpetrated" their crime, you wouldn't have to worry about their well-being..

 

[umop apisdn]

This. It has a simplistic logic but misses the entire point of prison reform:

Occam's razor, innit.

Please show me where I was making a case -- simplistic or otherwise -- for prison reform.

 

[DotCommunist]

This. It has a simplistic logic but misses the entire point of prison reform:

how then do we deal with the classist and racist nature of our judicial sytem? 'Don't do the crime, don't do the time' sounds great* untill you look at prison stats.

*it doesn't sound great. Babylon must fall then we can police ourselves rather than being policed by agencies of wider capital