Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[purenarcotic]

trans issues seem to me to be 'first world problems'.
i suspect the west is at an advanced stage of decadence, frankly.
i wouldn't want a transgender PM, because most of the rest of the world will never take he/she seriously.

Wow.

 

[Sirena]

Anyway, as someone who isn't cis, its always illuminating to read discussion both here and elsewhere. Its heartening that in the more mainstream of concious, trans and intersex people are becoming much more understood and accepted, whilst sadly and especially on the internet, the positions of both some feminists, trans activists and 'commentators' become ever more entrenched, and commonalities of experience/living in a world of patriarchy and capital and class are overshadowed by an ever increasing war of words over some facets of 'identity'.

Having got on my high horse about a lot of trans/sex/gender stuff here a few years ago when this place felt a bit hostile, it's pleasing to see how discussion has moved on a lot here too. But for that reason, and that for the first time in my life during the last year or so, I've finally become confident enough myself to ultimately not give much of a shit whether cis people consider me to be a man/woman based on their numerous privileged reasons, I've mostly sat back during this and other recent threads.

That doesn't mean that this stuff isn't important, especially to trans and intersex people who are on the receiving end as an oppressed minority, but sometimes you have to carve out your own space and leave some of this behind before it consumes you.

Good post.

 

[killer b]

Lol, who's this bellend?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not to mention 'longstanding policy' as if that were some kind of justification. They've got this wrong for ever! Well done.

Back when I worked in the '90s for the Prisons Dept of the Home Office, detaining trans women in male prisons was already established practice, so for "longstanding policy" read "at least 35 years".
The (almost inevitable) result of such a policy is that the inmate is sexually assaulted, and has to be placed in the "Vulnerable Prisoner Unit". The problem with this is that the VPU is also where many of the worst rapists seek refuge from the part of the general prison population that hate "sex cases".
Detention in a women-only prison isn't just intellectually and morally right, it's also much safer for the trans woman.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Magistrates. Need I say more?

I don't like the magistracy, but I don't envy them either. In the last 10 or so years they've had to weather so many changes in criminal justice policy, in sentencing policy and in sheer volume of work that we've become more and more dependent on retirees - as they often have the "free" time to assimilate the new data that someone who's 9-5ing may not - and that dependence is often at the expense of creative sentencing. Tara could have been given a community sentence commensurate with her crime, but the bench, for reasons best known to themselves, decided on a short custodial sentence. They failed in terms of taking Tara's gender into account with regard to mitigation of sentence.

 

[Thora]

Detention in a women-only prison isn't just intellectually and morally right, it's also much safer for the trans woman.

The two objections I've seen raised to this is that women in a women's prison may not be/feel safer incarcerated with a male-bodied person, and also that if a precedent is set that you can opt for prison for either sex regardless of whether you are male-bodied or your legal gender, wouldn't most people be safer in a women's prison?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'd have thought it's down to the home office / prison service (or whatever it's called this week) - don't think judges / magistrates have the power to say 'I'm sending you to this particular clink' or would have the power specifically to sentence someone to the 'wrong' sort of prison.

defence solicitor / counsel might well have pointed out in mitigation what the consequences of a custodial sentence would be in this case and the beak may have chosen to ignore that

maybe the lesson here is that trans people should make sure they have their 'official' paperwork up to date in case they get sent down

IIRC they do have the discretion to direct that trans people are assigned to a prison consonant with their lived gender. They rarely exercise it.
What is needed is amendment to primary criminal justice legislation, but given that trans isn't a "cut and dried" set of distinctions, that won't happen. Well thought out and socially-useful legislation seldom does.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The two objections I've seen raised to this is that women in a women's prison may not be/feel safer incarcerated with a male-bodied person, and also that if a precedent is set that you can opt for prison for either sex regardless of whether you are male-bodied or your legal gender, wouldn't most people be safer in a women's prison?

This isn't a serious point, surely. You make it sound like men are dragging up to get themselves a softer time of it. This trivialisation of the matter is the same crap Greer is coming out with. It's not based on anything in reality.

 

[Thora]

This isn't a serious point, surely. You make it sound like men are dragging up to get themselves a softer time of it. This trivialisation of the matter is the same crap Greer is coming out with. It's not based on anything in reality.

I think your flat out dismissal of genuine points of concern that women have doesn't really do anything to advance your argument.

 

[laptop]

This isn't a serious point, surely. You make it sound like men are dragging up to get themselves a softer time of it. This trivialisation of the matter is the same crap Greer is coming out with. It's not based on anything in reality.

As I read it, it's noting that if it were easy to choose, men would drag up. Men who are convicted criminals, after all...

Not everything is about trans folk! Their challenge to the existing definitions is bound to have side-effects that are unpleasant for them...

 

[ViolentPanda]

The two objections I've seen raised to this is that women in a women's prison may not be/feel safer incarcerated with a male-bodied person, and also that if a precedent is set that you can opt for prison for either sex regardless of whether you are male-bodied or your legal gender, wouldn't most people be safer in a women's prison?

I think you'd need to stipulate qualifiers, most definitely.
Would I want to see a male who decides to call themselves trans but hasn't even begun to transition, detained in a womans' prison? Definitely not. I do think that a transitioning trans person who retains the genitalia but has, say, undergone counselling and hormone therapy, should be considered for a "gender-appropriate" prison, provided the counselling and/or hormone therapy continues during detention.
As for fully-transitioned trans persons, I mentioned earlier about detention practices which meant that post-surgical trans women were detained in male prisons, with the outcome that the trans woman would end up suffering the entire spectrum of sexual assault, along with the accompanying physical and mental trauma. To me it seems obvious that the place for a post-surgical trans inmate is in a prison that reflects their current gender.

 

[Pickman's model]

The two objections I've seen raised to this is that women in a women's prison may not be/feel safer incarcerated with a male-bodied person, and also that if a precedent is set that you can opt for prison for either sex regardless of whether you are male-bodied or your legal gender, wouldn't most people be safer in a women's prison?

I think your flat out dismissal of genuine points of concern that women have doesn't really do anything to advance your argument.

i am curious about the extent to which you agree with the objections you have seen raised.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thought the article said she had had 6 years of surgery so assumed the surgery was finished anyway if she lives as a woman send her to a female jail.

If she still has a fully-functioning penis, sending her to a womens' prison wouldn't be considered.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As I read it, it's noting that if it were easy to choose, men would drag up. Men who are convicted criminals, after all...

I still don't see how it is a serious point. A few genuine trans-women should be thrown under the bus on the basis of a purely hypothetical fear of men abusing the system? It's setting up a false dichotomy in any case - either you have rigid rules: no certificate, off to male prison, whatever else; or you have a system that is wide open to abuse by chancers. There is a third position: a system that will not do a horrendous thing to a person on the basis of lack of paperwork and will take the effort to evaluate individual cases.

 

[killer b]

i am curious about the extent to which you agree with the objections you have seen raised.

I wonder why she felt it necessary to couch the question in such neutral terms?

 

[Pickman's model]

I still don't see how it is a serious point. A few genuine trans-women should be thrown under the bus on the basis of a purely hypothetical fear of men abusing the system? It's setting up a false dichotomy in any case - either you have rigid rules: no certificate, off to male prison, whatever else; or you have a system that is wide open to abuse by chancers. There is a third position: a system that will not do a horrendous thing to a person on the basis of lack of paperwork and will take the effort to evaluate individual cases.

and i take it you're a third positionist

 

[ViolentPanda]

My understanding is that it is much more of a significant problem in the states.

It is. That doesn't mean it isn't growing problem here, especially with some gangs in UK prisons using sexual assault on members of other gangs as "initiation" ritual.

Otoh, I am led to believe that violent sexual assaults are endemic in some women's prisons in the uk.

Inmate on inmate isn't quite endemic yet, but it is a significant issue among those inmates serving longer sentences.

Officer on inmate is also a growing problem across the entire detention system.

 

[Thora]

i am curious about the extent to which you agree with the objections you have seen raised.

I can see both sides. I don't think having a penis automatically makes Tara Hudson a danger to women, while being in a men's prison does put her in danger. But I also think often sex segregation is there for a good reason, and saying anyone who says they're a women should be able to access them is not an adequate solution.

 

[likesfish]

taras got 8 previous convictions including battery so at some point you run out of options .
obviously not getting bladdered and punchy isnt something taras considered as an option

 

[Sirena]

taras got 8 previous convictions including battery so at some point you run out of options .
obviously not getting bladdered and punchy isnt something taras considered as an option

 

[littlebabyjesus]

saying anyone who says they're a women should be able to access them is not an adequate solution.

Who's saying that?

 

[DotCommunist]

taras got 8 previous convictions including battery so at some point you run out of options .
obviously not getting bladdered and punchy isnt something taras considered as an option

could have stuck her on tag plus court ordered anger managment and substance abuse classes and a hefty fine. 8 previous is not good but the alternative- jail- doesn't bear thinking about in this womans case. Shit with an ASBO thing they could have banned her from specific boozers and streets. There were a lot of other option as far as I can see.

 

[ViolentPanda]

all that needs to be said is - because her paperwork does not match her presentation

What the whole detention story boils down to is that because Tara still has a penis (although if she's been on hormone therapy for years,it'll only be useful for pissing through), then for "risk management" purposes (i.e. managing the very small risk that in a womens' prison Tara's masculinity might reassert itself and she might rape or otherwise sexually assault other inmates), she's been detained in a mans' prison - something that doesn't manage the SIGNIFICANT risk of her being multiply sexually assaulted in the course of her sentence.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so, if one agrees with GGreer, one must be a reactionary conservative? hmmm...
having an operation if you are not ill, and you simply 'feel' like you've got the wrong body is not a right. in fact, its a waste of resources. I hope the NHS doesn't provide for gender reassignment out of the public purse.

I think you'll find it wasn't so much your "agreement" with Greer as your other comments that got you tagged as a "reactionary conservative", dicksplash.

 

[ViolentPanda]

trans issues seem to me to be 'first world problems'.
i suspect the west is at an advanced stage of decadence, frankly.
i wouldn't want a transgender PM, because most of the rest of the world will never take he/she seriously.

And you know that they wouldn't be taken seriously because...?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think you'll find it wasn't so much your "agreement" with Greer as your other comments that got you tagged as a "reactionary conservative", dicksplash.

On this particular issue, Greer is acting like a reactionary conservative, though. And she seems to be revelling in it, too, making her argument deliberately crass.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Wow.

Possible returned poster. My money is on flimsier. He used to fantasise about being Young Stalin.

 

[DotCommunist]

Possible returned poster. My money is on flimsier. He used to fantasise about being Young Stalin.

you'll have missed his maoist third worldist leanings from previous threads then.

 

[ViolentPanda]

On this particular issue, Greer is acting like a reactionary conservative, though. And she seems to be revelling in it, too, making her argument deliberately crass.

Greer is acting like Greer always has - assuming a contrarian stance to generate attention. Deliberate crassness and over-simplification of issues go hand in hand with the self-serving iconoclasm.

 

[ViolentPanda]

you'll have missed his maoist third worldist leanings from previous threads then.

Nope, I just didn't find them credible, frankly. It was like reading the political fartings of a 6th-former Swappie - all rhetoric and no knowledge or soul.