Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[bluescreen]

She's pre-op.

Do you know that? The press reports suggest otherwise. In any case, the bench before who she appeared can't have been in any doubt how she presented.
More difficult are cases where someone who identifies as female but doesn't even attempt to pass (beard etc). What happens to them?

 

[bluescreen]

Thought the article said she had had 6 years of surgery so assumed the surgery was finished anyway if she lives as a woman send her to a female jail.

Even if she hadn't had the surgery.

 

[dylanredefined]

Even if she hadn't had the surgery.

She looks female enough to be at greater risk in a male prison than a female one. She is being punished by being locked up not being raped.

 

[bluescreen]

She looks female enough to be at greater risk in a male prison than a female one. She is being punished by being locked up not being raped.

Completely agree. (As an aside, not a wot about the menz, why isn't there more outrage about prison rape? I hate the way people joke about it as if it were an understood part of the punishment.)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Her mum wasn't even expecting a prison sentence. I don't know the full details, but she pleaded guilty to a charge that often doesn't involve jail terms. Women form only a small part of the prison population, but it's well documented that they are often treated more harshly by courts than men where their actions are deemed 'unwomanly'. It may well be that Tara has been cunted over twice here for being transgender.

ETA:

The conviction was for common assault, the lowest level of assault. So she got into a drunken brawl of some kind in a pub (and possibly started it) but didn't actually injure anyone in any serious way. (And she owned up and was prepared to take some form of treatment.)

That really does have me asking: how likely is it that a man would have been jailed for that?

 

[bluescreen]

That's how I read it, lbj.

 

[Citizen66]

She doesn't need prison she needs help with emotional / alcohol problems. Fucking barbaric actions by the state here.

 

[spanglechick]

Completely agree. (As an aside, not a wot about the menz, why isn't there more outrage about prison rape? I hate the way people joke about it as if it were an understood part of the punishment.)

My understanding is that it is much more of a significant problem in the states. Otoh, I am led to believe that violent sexual assaults are endemic in some women's prisons in the uk.

 

[spanglechick]

My understanding is that it is much more of a significant problem in the states. Otoh, I am led to believe that violent sexual assaults are endemic in some women's prisons in the uk.

which is not to say that it isn't a concern. all rape is horrific, and clearly when there is no escape from the environment it is a particular problem. Just that our perception of the scale of the problem comes from US culture.

 

[bluescreen]

It's a problem in the UK too.
Ministers urged to investigate prison rape - The Howard League for Penal Reform

 

[smokedout]

Seems there's some back pedalling happening.

Prison service considering removing transgender woman Tara Hudson from all-male jail

and the reasons the Metro had to publish pictures of her naked are?

(not a pop at you c66, just an observation)

 

[Sirena]

Do you know that? The press reports suggest otherwise.

"Last night Tara’s mother, 48, said that her daughter still had the vestige remains of a penis, despite having 34EE breasts.

She said the hormone treatment had shrunken Tara’s ‘manhood’ and she was due to have it removed ‘at some point’ and was still taking hormone treatment she has been receiving for some years."


Read more: Transgender woman sent to an all-male prison despite safety fears
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[stethoscope]

I rather suspect her mother didn't quite say that. But the press were going to write it like that anyway as they utterly obsessed over trans people and what surgery they've had or not.

 

[toggle]

She's pre-op.

it's the lack of paperwork. op status is irrelevent to that

 

[bluescreen]

TMI, Sirena. Not convinced that any of that is relevant to which kind of prison she should be in (if she should be in prison at all, which I seriously doubt).

 

[Sirena]

it's the lack of paperwork. op status is irrelevent to that

I was replying to the question about how did they even know she was a transsexual.....

 

[toggle]

TMI, Sirena. Not convinced that any of that is relevant to which kind of prison she should be in (if she should be in prison at all, which I seriously doubt).

innit. considering it's irrelevent to whether she would be granted gender recognition paperwork. it's definately not anyhting i need to know about her.

 

[Sirena]

TMI, Sirena. Not convinced that any of that is relevant to which kind of prison she should be in (if she should be in prison at all, which I seriously doubt).

Maybe not but I was just answering your question...

 

[toggle]

I was replying to the question about how did they even know she was a transsexual.....

all that needs to be said is - because her paperwork does not match her presentation

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What kind of complete idiot couldn't see that they were doing the wrong thing sending her to a male jail? Yet they all hid behind the paperwork and did it anyway. Fuck me.

 

[bluescreen]

Maybe not but I was just answering your question...

OK. God what a mess.
ETA: not sure which of my crass questions you were answering but this certainly wasn't the sort of answer I've ever sought.

 

[stethoscope]

Still all very reassuring that they rarely manage to send to prison, let alone catch and convict, the many people who attack and sexually assault trans people all the time, whilst they're clearly able to do this

 

[Athos]

Athos, I can't speak for others but hazard a guess that this:
is what gets people's backs up before they read this:

Plus your view of what contemporary feminist discourse should concentrate on may not be welcomed by contemporary feminists of any stripe. They are quite capable of discerning that for themselves. BTW, last I heard you don't have to be a woman to be a feminist.

Your choice of definition may be well intentioned but it sounds patronising because you (honestly) include your reservations. To express any reservations here makes it sound as if you're tolerating rather than openly accepting. Reservations almost cancel out acceptance. But you make an excellent point about what's important here: the health and safety of trans women is paramount.

There will be others sharper than me who will have much less forgiving remarks.

Whilst I'm well aware that some feminists don't share my view about contemporary feminist discourse, I know that some do. Is it wrong for me to venture an opinion, at all? Literally just that: venturing an opinion, not trying to foist it on anyone.

To be honest, the definition of 'woman' that any of us adopts is a choice. It's not as though there some compelling scientific or logical argument that can conclusively define womanhood once and for all, beyond all doubt, is it? We might as well be honest about that. And, if we're chooing, we might as well choose for the right reasons, eh? I don't really see that as having reservations.

 

[bluescreen]

To be honest, the definition of 'woman' that any of us adopts is a choice. It's not as though there some compelling scientific or logical argument that can conclusively define womanhood once and for all, beyond all doubt, is it? We might as well be honest about that. And, if we're chooing, we might as well choose for the right reasons, eh? I don't really see that as having reservations.

And you seriously don't understand why that is triggering? TBH I didn't get it at first. It's not about choice, it's about acceptance. Maybe continue this discussion backchannel.

 

[Citizen66]

and the reasons the Metro had to publish pictures of her naked are?

(not a pop at you c66, just an observation)

Good point. The Mail (especially online) love (and loathe) the female body so no change there.

Just remembered it wasn't the mail online but isn't the metro the same news org?

 

[bluescreen]

Gross though it is, it may even help persuade the knuckledraggers.

 

[Athos]

And you seriously don't understand why that is triggering? TBH I didn't get it at first. It's not about choice, it's about acceptance. Maybe continue this discussion backchannel.

I understand that some people are upset by things they disagree with, yes.

I choose to be accepting, becasue it's the right thing to do. Why are you accepting?

No need to go backchannel - this sort of stuff is what this thread is about.

 

[smokedout]

Good point. The Mail (especially online) love (and loathe) the female body so no change there.

Just remembered it wasn't the mail online but isn't the metro the same news org?

yep, was going to question if they would publish a picture of a naked non-trans woman to accompany a story about someone potentially at risk of sexual abuse, but tbh I think they probably would.

 

[bluescreen]

Athos, I accept because I trust people to tell the truth about themselves.
*because it's the right thing to do* suggests some more general imposition, doesn't say what you really mean.
I suggested going backchannel because talking about this stuff in any kind of abstract philosophical way is bloody inconsiderate to anyone who is living these realities.
TBH it's bloody inconsiderate even to think about talking behind closed doors.

 

[Citizen66]

yep, was going to question if they would publish a picture of a naked non-trans woman to accompany a story about someone potentially at risk of sexual abuse, but tbh I think they probably would.

They trawl social media for the most salivating material. The context probably doesn't cross their minds when they do this

E2a- I mean that as a criticism not an excuse.