Why do peoples not understand that immigration is currently based on 'pull'?

[durruti02]

Aye and durutti, baldwin and beckyp will always harp on about how a "majority" of people share their views but never seem willing to produce and figures. Odd that.

so do you think the majority support your position! LOLROF

880 bnp
42 respect
do the math

 

[durruti02]

So you would prefer to debate with what you think somebody else thinks but does not say? In that case I shall leave you to play with your strawmen.

VP is being really dishonest here tbh .. he knows full well what i support ..

i have also tried 3 times ( by pm) to get him to come out and discuss it in a group in S.london .. but he has not even replied and (again dishonestly) once claimed on the board that he had replied .. not good

 

[ViolentPanda]

VP is being really dishonest here tbh .. he knows full well what i support ..

i have also tried 3 times ( by pm) to get him to come out and discuss it in a group in S.london .. but he has not even replied and (again dishonestly) once claimed on the board that he had replied .. not good

Actually arsehole, I did reply, both to you and balders, and said the same thing both times; I can barely fucking walk at the moment and I'm having to take morphine for pain control, so going out is something I don't do a lot of except if I absolutely have to.

And you've got the cheek to call me dishonest...

 

[ViolentPanda]

So you would prefer to debate with what you think somebody else thinks but does not say? In that case I shall leave you to play with your strawmen.

Why don't you do that?

Thanks.

 

[ViolentPanda]

don't be dishonest now VP


.. you know full well i gave a full page months ago ( and repeated on a number of occassions ) about real practical working class ways of dealing with this issue.. i even pmed you .. involving pickets of agencies .. campaigns for local employment etc etc

you also know full well i do not support immigration control ...

and that i support fully community support for refugees ..

why the dishonesty mate?

No dishonesty, but your methods only address part of the issue, and you'll only ever look at things from your "you're a liberal if you don't agree with me" position, something you refuse to acknowledge in the same way you refuse to acknowledge that your position on "sons and daughters" might be wrong.

p.s what wrong with millwall and jack tats .. not to my taste but i's have a dragon .. know some totally sound blokes as you describe ..

I'm a Hammers fan.

 

[audiotech]

god you get worse .. i am an absolute anti -imperialist and was active in anti -imp groups years ago ..

what you don't get is we are now in a period of neo liberalism where capital both shifts ( pulls) workers for cheap labour or moves its factories to find cheaper labour .. can you not see this ? are you blind???

it is the modern slavery .. families broken for capital ..

also you have NOT picked up how this is being used to stir racism have you .. noticed how the bnp are doing??

try reading what marx said 130 years ago about how the bosses use immigration not only to attack wages BUT to foster division and racsim .. i seem to remember doing a thread on it which totally confused you wiberals

ffs, everytime you are bereft of a decent argument you have to go with the 'liberal' charge, and the 'w' added as though that gives it extra clout.

In the 19th century Marx argued that the antagonism of English workers towards Irish immigrants was “the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power”. Racism in the working class today serves the same role.

The ruling class delights in being able to marshal workers as they wish, to beat them down where they can, in order to ensure that they remain compliant. Asserting the authority to say who can enter any particular territory allows the state a free hand in serving the overall interests of the capitalist class. The existence in Britain of ‘illegal’ (ie, undocumented) workers from elsewhere in the world means the existence of workers who can be exploited even more than those who have to be paid the minimum wage. Even if they are paid that rate, their unofficial or temporary status serves to keep them cowed, discouraging trade union membership and weakening the overall position of workers vis-à-vis the bourgeoisie.

Every restriction on entry into Britain has the gang-masters and, more importantly, employers greedy for higher profits rubbing their hands with glee. These restrictions certainly do not benefit the working class.

So, why do you give succour to such ideas if, as you claim, to be on the side of the working class and against the bosses?

 

[Knotted]

Why don't you do that?

Thanks.

Of course I do, but not as a tactic to shut down debate.

 

[nino_savatte]

so do you think the majority support your position! LOLROF

880 bnp
42 respect
do the math

This is desperation; nothing more and nothing less. You still have not managed to produce figures which support your thesis.

 

[nino_savatte]

you really are quite slow mate .. if you read what people write you would KNOW that, unlike some on here who DO support an increase in immigration control to protect workers,

wait for it


i do not!

i have consistently argued ( and this is the point of this thread too) that as the controling factor in immigration is the PULL, then logical if we wanted to slow or stop immirgation it woudl be done by removing the cause .. i.e. spivs and cowboy employers

honestly if you haven't worked this out it is hard to argue with you as you are so off the game ..

Your pull argument also does not hold water. Perhaps you've conveniently forgotten the twin legacies of colonialism and slavery? Your thesis is weak on two fronts: first, because you pin the blame on "spiv bosses" and second, because you fail to identify the true causes and go chasing wild geese instead.

 

[nino_savatte]

"generally supportive of the status quo" .. are you totally thick????

my whole point of these threads has been about how neoliberalism has attacked/hamstrung the w/c (and how immigration has been used as a tool in this process) and therefore how in a period of unbelievable weakness (unbelievable even from what was called the 'downturn' of the early 8ts) to recreate resisitance/power in the w/c ..

You are generally supportive of the status quo because you accept the hackneyed anti-immigration arguments and have offered nothing truly different.

Here, you claim that neo-liberalism is to blame but fail to understand how both neo-liberalism and the legacy of slavery and colonialism have helped to shape today's world.

 

[Knotted]

In the 19th century Marx argued that the antagonism of English workers towards Irish immigrants was “the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power”. Racism in the working class today serves the same role.

That's not all he argued:

But the English bourgeoisie has also much more important interests in the present economy of Ireland. Owing to the constantly increasing concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus to the English labour market, and thus forces down wages and lowers the material and moral position of the English working class.

Marx was a materialist. He didn't see ideology as arising from ideology. Racism is not the cause of racism. The ideology arises from the material position of the working class.

The ruling class delights in being able to marshal workers as they wish, to beat them down where they can, in order to ensure that they remain compliant. Asserting the authority to say who can enter any particular territory allows the state a free hand in serving the overall interests of the capitalist class. The existence in Britain of ‘illegal’ (ie, undocumented) workers from elsewhere in the world means the existence of workers who can be exploited even more than those who have to be paid the minimum wage. Even if they are paid that rate, their unofficial or temporary status serves to keep them cowed, discouraging trade union membership and weakening the overall position of workers vis-à-vis the bourgeoisie.

This is fair comment, however it is not the whole story. Legal immigrants are also highly exploited and also provide a downward pressure on wages. Furthermore immigration controls actually encourage immigrants to settle. This is an entirely unintended consequence, but for the working class it is beneficial. Complete freedom of movement will enlarge the pool of workers here on a temporary basis, decreasing insentives to integrate and to join trade unions.

The solution is not to be found in reforming immigration control legislation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Of course I do, but not as a tactic to shut down debate.

It was a request.

as in "why don't you go ahead and do that?".

 

[brasicritique]

with regards to violet, nino an mc5 same shit different thread

 

[nino_savatte]

with regards to violet, nino an mc5 same shit different thread

Who is "violet"? Oh, she's a character in Coronation Street, silly me!

 

[audiotech]

with regards to violet, nino an mc5 same shit different thread

Shouldn't you be out and about campaigning for further immigration controls?

 

[tbaldwin]

This is desperation; nothing more and nothing less. You still have not managed to produce figures which support your thesis.

And your politics is full of theses...

 

[nino_savatte]

And your politics is full of theses...

This sentence does not make sense.

At least I post links and articles to support my position and you? You do fuck all but make cheap shots.

Go fuck yourself, baldwin.

 

[dennisr]

with regards to violet, nino an mc5 same shit different thread

Shouldn't you be out and about campaigning for further immigration controls?

<below the belt>or getting your new prosac prescription in?</below the belt>

 

[tbaldwin]

This sentence does not make sense.

At least I post links and articles to support my position and you? You do fuck all but make cheap shots.

Go fuck yourself, baldwin.

Did you not read my thread on the NHS big stat on that,about New Labour doubling spending and after all the time you and Judge VP go on about my lack of facts and stats,all you could do was make an utter twat of yourself.........Just for a change...

 

[nino_savatte]

Did you not read my thread on the NHS big stat on that,about New Labour doubling spending and after all the time you and Judge VP go on about my lack of facts and stats,all you could do was make an utter twat of yourself.........Just for a change...

Wrong thread...or can't you read?

You never produce evidence because you're fundamentally dishonest.

 

[tbaldwin]

Wrong thread...or can't you read?

You never produce evidence because you're fundamentally dishonest.

I think the NHS thread really showed who the liar is nino.

 

[audiotech]

<below the belt>or getting your new prosac prescription in?</below the belt>

eh?

 

[audiotech]

I think the NHS thread really showed who the liar is nino.

ffs, give it a rest eh?

 

[nino_savatte]

I think the NHS thread really showed who the liar is nino.

I think the NHS thread showed what a cunt you are. You're on the wrong thread, tosser.

 

[urbanrevolt]

god you get worse .. i am an absolute anti -imperialist and was active in anti -imp groups years ago ..

what you don't get is we are now in a period of neo liberalism where capital both shifts ( pulls) workers for cheap labour or moves its factories to find cheaper labour .. can you not see this ? are you blind???

it is the modern slavery .. families broken for capital ..

also you have NOT picked up how this is being used to stir racism have you .. noticed how the bnp are doing??

try reading what marx said 130 years ago about how the bosses use immigration not only to attack wages BUT to foster division and racsim .. i seem to remember doing a thread on it which totally confused you wiberals

So the response should be for a united working class- for trade unions to recruit the undocumeted workers, oppose checks on immigration status, workplace raids and deportations, to have militant campaigns against factory closures and sackings including occupations and mass pickets- also including operating a closed shop.

This way we can have a militant trade unionism that is actively antiracist, that fights against the BNP not just in terms of leafletting but also physical confrontation and attacking some of the root causes of racism and cuts.

 

[editor]

*ducks flying pram-based toys

Keep it civil please

*leaves quickly

 

[durruti02]

Actually arsehole, I did reply, both to you and balders, and said the same thing both times; I can barely fucking walk at the moment and I'm having to take morphine for pain control, so going out is something I don't do a lot of except if I absolutely have to.

And you've got the cheek to call me dishonest...

vp .. i am very sorry to hear of your situation ..

but do not USE that against me .. how the hell do you expect me to know where you are at??

p.s. you did NOT respond to me .. maybe you did to balders .. you certainly did not to me .. so charge of dishonesty stands as you have continueously misrepresented me ..

 

[durruti02]

No dishonesty, but your methods only address part of the issue, and you'll only ever look at things from your "you're a liberal if you don't agree with me" position, something you refuse to acknowledge in the same way you refuse to acknowledge that your position on "sons and daughters" might be wrong.

I'm a Hammers fan.

my perhaps overvealousness is related to the political situation we are in where it is overwhemingly clear the left have lost the w/c .. and the bnp are dramatically filling the vacuum .. it is clear that the lefts response to immirgation and neo liberalism is a fundamental part of this disasterous situation

the use of liberal relates to those who think individual rights stand above the community .. it is justified

iron??.. well you should know better then .. that it is stupid to use cheap racial/class sterotypes more befitting of the (liberal) guardian

 

[durruti02]

ffs, everytime you are bereft of a decent argument you have to go with the 'liberal' charge, and the 'w' added as though that gives it extra clout.

In the 19th century Marx argued that the antagonism of English workers towards Irish immigrants was “the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power”. Racism in the working class today serves the same role.

The ruling class delights in being able to marshal workers as they wish, to beat them down where they can, in order to ensure that they remain compliant. Asserting the authority to say who can enter any particular territory allows the state a free hand in serving the overall interests of the capitalist class. The existence in Britain of ‘illegal’ (ie, undocumented) workers from elsewhere in the world means the existence of workers who can be exploited even more than those who have to be paid the minimum wage. Even if they are paid that rate, their unofficial or temporary status serves to keep them cowed, discouraging trade union membership and weakening the overall position of workers vis-à-vis the bourgeoisie.

Every restriction on entry into Britain has the gang-masters and, more importantly, employers greedy for higher profits rubbing their hands with glee. These restrictions certainly do not benefit the working class.

So, why do you give succour to such ideas if, as you claim, to be on the side of the working class and against the bosses?

re marx please note what was said on my marx and immigration Thread ( shall i bump it?? ) and read what knotted said which is spot on ... and what i have said continously for a year and a half on urban .. that the bosses use immigration for cheap labour AND to create racism and division .. there is NO racism where there is no fight for jobs/resources ..

and why YET AGAIN ( shouting!! ) do you suggest i am in favour of restriction as has been said A MILLION TIMES ( shouting again!!) i am NOT ... i am in favour of STOPPING the bosses use immigration for the purposes of their neo lib agenda .. really mate i have said this dozens of times why is it SOOOO hard to comprehend?

 

[ViolentPanda]

my perhaps overvealousness is related to the political situation we are in where it is overwhemingly clear the left have lost the w/c .. and the bnp are dramatically filling the vacuum .. it is clear that the lefts response to immirgation and neo liberalism is a fundamental part of this disasterous situation

No it isn't.
The fundamental contributor has nothing to do with the way the national or international left respond to the problems, and everything to do with the hegemony of capital and the submission of national governments to capital.
Blaming the left is like blaming a box of matches for starting a fire. Whichever way the left (or the right for that matter) had reacted or responded, the same problems would still be occurring because too much power has been ceded by the political classes to the economic magnates.
Tackling problems has to be about attacking Capital on it's home turf, not about whining about the effects of capital.

the use of liberal relates to those who think individual rights stand above the community .. it is justified.

Balls, it's justified about 20% of the time it gets used, the rest of the time it's just cheap and easy abuse. We both know that.

iron??.. well you should know better then .. that it is stupid to use cheap racial/class sterotypes more befitting of the (liberal) guardian

More arse. Millwall were synonymous with thuggish fascist supporters as far back as I can remember, and certainly before papers like the Graun paid any attention to soccer.