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Why do people from privileged class backgrounds often misidentify their origins as working class?

andysays said:
No, you can't "escape" it.

I suppose a tiny number of people manage to acquire a sufficient amount of property to stop being working class/proletarian and become members of the capitalist class, but I'm not sure that's really what we're talking about.

I suppose it can be an identity as well, but your class position (in the Marxist sense, what is sense I'm talking about in) isn't altered by how you identify, not in any meaningful way.
Click to expand...

It’s not societal then is it.
 
chilango said:
In fact the lack of any sort of serious Uni "prep" meant that when I arrived as a "first generation" undergrad I didn't have a clue what to expect or what to do or how to navigate this strange new world, and neither did my parents. The results were pretty catastrophic...:(
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In contrast, at my school we had an ‘Oxbridge group’ in sixth form where they got extra tutoring, advice on what to expect with the interviews etc. I remember at the time thinking ‘so how is this about merit?’ I don’t think it’s wrong to give people support around interviews / applications, but it’s that process of extreme coaching because of your background... You automatically belong, even if actually you don’t because you haven’t really got what it takes...
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
Posh Scottish people speak with the same accent as posh English people on the whole - I'm not sure a distinct posh Scottish accent exists.
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Oh a posh Scottish accent very definitely does exist...cf. Malcolm Rifkind, various tartan-trewed Lord Lieutenants, circles of advocates and senior bankers, rugby internationals at Murrayfield, Scotland's dozen or so private schools. The accent is instantly recognisable.

Thankfully it doesn't automatically denote political power as it once did, but it still very much is sodden in cultural & social power. Folk like these tend to have a less public role these days and to keep their head down. They were last heard bemoaning that the SNP wanted to "do us all in" around the time of the 2014 referendum and are still the backbone of the Scottish Tory Party. They seemed to be labouring under the delusion that the SNP wanted some form of Mugabe-style land reform. Salmond, as it transpired, came much closer to being Canaan Banana than he ever was to being Mugabe.

I should add that they are the backbone of the membership rather than the cadre of elected politicians, who tend in the main to be jumped up lower middle class wannabes...an unpleasant farrago of military fantasists (Davidson, R), curtain-twitching nonetities (Ross, D) the spectacularly thick (Fraser, M), and other assorted vastly over-promoted local councillors and genuinely mediocre accountants / car salesmen. Jackson Carlaw and Ruth the Mooth can mouth couthy Scots such as "hud oan" as well as anyone. I'm sure the membership is grateful that they shoulder that difficult and vulgar burden, secretly hankering for the days when children were strapped for speaking in local dialect.
 
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purenarcotic said:
In contrast, at my school we had an ‘Oxbridge group’ in sixth form where they got extra tutoring, advice on what to expect with the interviews etc. I remember at the time thinking ‘so how is this about merit?’ I don’t think it’s wrong to give people support around interviews / applications, but it’s that process of extreme coaching because of your background... You automatically belong, even if actually you don’t because you haven’t really got what it takes...
Click to expand...

...and - often - that coaching is done by Oxbridge graduates, who can spot "one of their own" . Who, in the case of private schools. may well have developed relationships with with Oxbridge colleges' admissions etc. etc.

Even in my own limited experience of teaching in private schools abroad, I found myself developing relationships with the admissions departments if a couple of "leading" Art schools in the UK and France (iirc). They sought me out and cultivated this relationship. Does this happen in State schools?

Further (and this is the sort of area I research) think about the architecture and atmosphere of Oxbridge Colleges' - someone from a private school will feel at home with wood panelling, the art, the carved stone and "stately" feel. In contrast the "atmosphere" of most State schools (IME) is more inclined to echo that of a modern prison.
 
steeplejack said:
Oh a posh Scottish accent very definitely does exist...cf. Malcolm Rifkind, various tartan-trewed Lord Lieutenants, circles of advocates and senior bankers, rugby internationals at Murrayfield, Scotland's dozen or so private schools. The accent is instantly recognisable.

Thankfully it doesn't automatically denote political power as it once did, but it still very much is sodden in cultural & social power. Folk like these tend to have a less public role these days and to keep their head down. They were last heard bemoaning that the SNP wanted to "do us all in" around the time of the 2014 referendum and are still the backbone of the Scottish Tory Party. They seemed to be labouring under the delusion that the SNP wanted some form of Mugabe-style land reform. Salmond, as it transpired, came much closer to being Canaan Banana than he ever was to being Mugabe.

I should add that they are the backbone of the membership rather than the cadre of elected politicians, who tend in the main to be jumped up lower middle class wannabes...an unpleasant farrago of military fantasists (Davidson, R), curtain-twitching nonetities (Ross, D) the spectacularly thick (Fraser, M), and other assorted vastly over-promoted local councillors and genuinely mediocre accountants / car salesmen. Jackson Carlaw and Ruth the Mooth can mouth couthy Scots such as "hud oan" as well as anyone. I'm sure the membership is grateful that they shoulder that difficult and vulgar burden, secretly hankering for the days when children were strapped for speaking in local dialect.
Click to expand...

I laughed when I heard Anas Sarwar* on the radio the other day. His current accent is definitely not Hutcheson's Grammar.

*Standing for leadership of Scottish Labour, privately educated (as are his children), last seen banging on about the importance of equality. Non-ironically one assumes...

www.theguardian.com

Anas Sarwar: ‘I’ll rebuild Labour party in Scotland’

Glasgow MSP pledges to replace internal wrangling with united purpose as he sets out his stall to succeed Richard Leonard
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Sue said:
I laughed when I heard Anas Sarwar* on the radio the other day. His current accent is definitely not Hutcheson's Grammar.

*Standing for leadership of Scottish Labour, privately educated (as are his children), last seen banging on about the importance of equality. Non-ironically one assumes...

www.theguardian.com

Anas Sarwar: ‘I’ll rebuild Labour party in Scotland’

Glasgow MSP pledges to replace internal wrangling with united purpose as he sets out his stall to succeed Richard Leonard
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...

Yep Monica Lennon would be the smart choice for “Scottish” Labour, which means that a largely cretinous and dwindling membership will plump for Anus 3:1. He’s about as genuine as a Bank of Wales three pound note.

The branch office seem determined to play the role of saluting, forelock- tugging redjacket sergeant, as the Tories seek desperately to delay the final lowering of the Union Jack for a few years more.
 
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chilango said:
In fact the lack of any sort of serious Uni "prep" meant that when I arrived as a "first generation" undergrad I didn't have a clue what to expect or what to do or how to navigate this strange new world, and neither did my parents. The results were pretty catastrophic...:(
Click to expand...

This. :(

It makes me angry. My parents gave me everything they could but it wasn't good enough as they didn't have the know how to navigate that world.
 
Pickman's model said:
This social mobility by war, I wonder if you could point me to a source which explores it more deeply
Click to expand...

subject to the disclaimers that military history isn't my speciality, it's too late and i'm too tired to dig out sources, and that i'm in no way justifying militarisation, conscription or wars, but my understanding is that during the wartime / national service generation of servicemen, a few did get commissioned 'from the ranks' and (depending on your viewpoint) became middle class that way, if that's what was meant.

kebabking said:
My family's surname in that village in Dorset is spelt three different - and quite impressively different -ways in less than a century...
Click to expand...

according to this, william shakespeare spelled his own name differently on different documents. wasn't spelling of most words in english fairly flexible at one point in time?
 
chilango said:
...and - often - that coaching is done by Oxbridge graduates, who can spot "one of their own" . Who, in the case of private schools. may well have developed relationships with with Oxbridge colleges' admissions etc. etc.

Even in my own limited experience of teaching in private schools abroad, I found myself developing relationships with the admissions departments if a couple of "leading" Art schools in the UK and France (iirc). They sought me out and cultivated this relationship. Does this happen in State schools?

Further (and this is the sort of area I research) think about the architecture and atmosphere of Oxbridge Colleges' - someone from a private school will feel at home with wood panelling, the art, the carved stone and "stately" feel. In contrast the "atmosphere" of most State schools (IME) is more inclined to echo that of a modern prison.
Click to expand...

This happened with nearly ever state school I attended. From the north east of England to Scotland.

stuff like, exchange trips, native speaking french and german teachers would spend three to six months teaching classes of clueless 8yrs olds who could just about say
'hello my name is...'
'I like the colour ....'
'the railway ticket is not valid for the underground on Tuesdays or Thursdays...' Madam
 
steeplejack said:
Yep Monica Lennon would be the smart choice for “Scottish” Labour, which means that a largely cretinous and dwindling membership will plump for Anus 3:1. He’s about as genuine as a Bank of Wales three pound note.

The branch office seem determined to play the role of saluting, forelock- tugging redjacket sergeant, as the Tories seek desperately to delay the final lowering of the Union Jack for a few years more.
Click to expand...
Off topic, but I don’t think it makes any difference at all who leads Scottish Labour. Their problems are deeper than whoever the person at the top is.
 
Where are the class boundaries nowadays, and in the days to come? When I was a lad it all seemed clear cut. Manual work made you working class, clerical work made you middle class. Or so it seemed. Huge variations, of course, between e.g. coal miners and bus drivers.
Nowadays perceptions vary so much. Working on the tills at Tesco might be seen as working class, but the tills at Waitrose are another matter entirely. And Lidl?
With potential mass unemployment on the way, how does that affect the mix? Are unemployed pub barmen the same class as unemployed pub landlords? Does the length of time of the unemployment count?
Does house ownership come into it and how is that affected by the age of the house owner and fluctuations in house prices? If you are in the first year of your mortgage or you own outright, does that make a difference?
And is there variation between different parts of the country?

I know that Marxist analysis and similar might take no or little account of such human perceptions. But we all do.

(There's at least 7 question marks in that lot, but is it really only one big question or lots of little ones?)
 
Kevbad the Bad said:
Where are the class boundaries nowadays, and in the days to come? When I was a lad it all seemed clear cut. Manual work made you working class, clerical work made you middle class. Or so it seemed. Huge variations, of course, between e.g. coal miners and bus drivers.
Nowadays perceptions vary so much. Working on the tills at Tesco might be seen as working class, but the tills at Waitrose are another matter entirely. And Lidl?
With potential mass unemployment on the way, how does that affect the mix? Are unemployed pub barmen the same class as unemployed pub landlords? Does the length of time of the unemployment count?
Does house ownership come into it and how is that affected by the age of the house owner and fluctuations in house prices? If you are in the first year of your mortgage or you own outright, does that make a difference?
And is there variation between different parts of the country?

I know that Marxist analysis and similar might take no or little account of such human perceptions. But we all do.

(There's at least 7 question marks in that lot, but is it really only one big question or lots of little ones?)
Click to expand...
does it matter if you paint houses with gloss or oils?
 
Kevbad the Bad said:
Where are the class boundaries nowadays, and in the days to come? When I was a lad it all seemed clear cut. Manual work made you working class, clerical work made you middle class. Or so it seemed. Huge variations, of course, between e.g. coal miners and bus drivers.
Nowadays perceptions vary so much. Working on the tills at Tesco might be seen as working class, but the tills at Waitrose are another matter entirely. And Lidl?
With potential mass unemployment on the way, how does that affect the mix? Are unemployed pub barmen the same class as unemployed pub landlords? Does the length of time of the unemployment count?
Does house ownership come into it and how is that affected by the age of the house owner and fluctuations in house prices? If you are in the first year of your mortgage or you own outright, does that make a difference?
And is there variation between different parts of the country?

I know that Marxist analysis and similar might take no or little account of such human perceptions. But we all do.

(There's at least 7 question marks in that lot, but is it really only one big question or lots of little ones?)
Click to expand...
You think working the tills' at Waitrose takes you out of the working class?
 
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