Why do people from privileged class backgrounds often misidentify their origins as working class?

[butchersapron]

Reinforcing the mythology of meritocracy and social mobility.

"I'm not that privileged, just lucky I guess"

i.e. I deserve my advantage, you deserve your disadvantage.

I tell you what pisses me off and it's directly related to this militant heartless meritocracy, the idea that unemployed graduates or phds etc, or them doing normal rubbish jobs is somehow more demeaning' or damaging or limiting for them (and by extension, the class that makes up most of this group) than it is for everyone else. And it's shockingly prevalent on the vocal left. Unconsciously so in many cases, but present still.

 

[Pickman's model]

Can you stay in bed and watch the capital accrue?

marx had a cat called capital and recorded in a letter to engels how he watched it accrue all over his bed one morning

 

[danny la rouge]

My daughter worked for John Lewis for a while. She said she was treated worse there than any other job she’s had.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Isn't it the case that the vast majority of the population don't give a stuff about class nowadays?

 

[butchersapron]

Marvellous.

 

[danny la rouge]

Isn't it the case that the vast majority of the population don't give a stuff about class nowadays?

Is it because they think it means whether or not you eat avocados?

 

[Pickman's model]

Isn't it the case that the vast majority of the population don't give a stuff about class nowadays?

ah but class gives a stuff about them

 

[kebabking]

Can you stay in bed and watch the capital accrue?

If you stay in bed for quite a long time, perhaps....

 

[Pickman's model]

My daughter worked for John Lewis for a while. She said she was treated worse there than any other job she’s had.

by management or customers or both?

 

[ska invita]

Oh a posh Scottish accent very definitely does exist...cf. Malcolm Rifkind, various tartan-trewed Lord Lieutenants, circles of advocates and senior bankers, rugby internationals at Murrayfield, Scotland's dozen or so private schools. The accent is instantly recognisable.

Is Ken Bruce from Radio 2 one?

 

[danny la rouge]

by management or customers or both?

Both. But, mainly management. She didn’t feel like a “partner” at all.

 

[danny la rouge]

Is Ken Bruce from Radio 2 one?

Yes. Hutchie Grammar accent.

 

[Pickman's model]

Both. But, mainly management. She didn’t feel like a “partner” at all.

we're all in it together until management drop you in the shit

 

[nogojones]

I tell you what pisses me off and it's directly related to this militant heartless meritocracy, the idea that unemployed graduates or phds etc, or them doing normal rubbish jobs is somehow more demeaning' or damaging or limiting for them (and by extension, the class that makes up most of this group) than it is for everyone else. And it's shockingly prevalent on the vocal left. Unconsciously so in many cases, but present still.

I get that, but I can also see why so many of them are pissed off. They've got into huge debt, that they might never pay off, chasing some mad dream that's been pushed at them, that a degree, masters or whatever will get them a fulfilling career with bare money.

Sorry kidda, get down to B&Q. Them shelves ain't gonna stack themselves

 

[Bus Honeygun]

Where are the class boundaries nowadays, and in the days to come? When I was a lad it all seemed clear cut. Manual work made you working class, clerical work made you middle class. Or so it seemed. Huge variations, of course, between e.g. coal miners and bus drivers.

No, I don't really get it anymore either.

I nowadays think of myself as middle class (thus making me extra working class ), on account of my clerical job and having married into a more solidly middle class family and having a mortgage. I grew up on free school meals and secondhand clothes. I'm very grateful to be relatively shielded from that world and its insecurity now.

Loads of my mates are train drivers. Technically a manual job, but they earn almost double my salary, and the manual element is limited to pressing buttons and switches in an air-conditioned cab. Some of them left school with no qualifications and joined in BR days. A couple of the younger ones went to grammar schools and did A-levels. Their role in society and the 'guild' style unionism of ASLEF also gives them a lot of power, certainly loads more than a Deliveroo rider. Are they still working class?

 

[ska invita]

I nowadays think of myself as middle class (thus making me extra working class )

lol
Agree though, its no longer sufficiently accurate, there are endless contradictions, complexities and grey areas, and I appreciate why Marxists are reluctant to update the categories, but its hardly scientific socialism. And to bring it back to the thread OP, its no wonder people misidentify.

 

[butchersapron]

Bit sad when the (then) governor of the bank of england has a better understanding of how class is fundamental and constitutive of our society and so just can't be forgot or moved on from or updated (see new-laboured also) than many lefters:

“If you substitute platforms for textile mills, machine learning for steam engines, Twitter for the telegraph, you have exactly the same dynamics as existed 150 years ago – when Karl Marx was scribbling the Communist Manifesto.”

 

[hitmouse]

Isn't it the case that the vast majority of the population don't give a stuff about class nowadays?

Not according to the research in that BSA study I've been slagging off:
"60% say they are working class, compared with 40% who say they are middle class. This proportion who consider themselves working class has not changed since 1983...
Those who identify as working class are more likely than those who identify as middle class to say that there is a wide divide between social classes (82% compared with 70%). People who see society as divided between a large disadvantaged group and a small privileged elite feel more working class regardless of their actual class position [i.e., their actual class position as defined by the BSA research, which I'm not a fan of]...
only a minority think that it is “not very difficult” to move between classes, and at just over a quarter, the proportion that do take that view has dropped from a little over a third in 2005. This decline is consistent with the claim that the change in the economic climate between 2005 and 2015 has served to make people more aware of class differences. Meanwhile, it is also the case that those who identify as working class are rather more likely to believe movement between classes is “very difficult”. People’s class identity is, on this measure at least, linked to some extent with their class awareness."

I nowadays think of myself as middle class (thus making me extra working class ), on account of my clerical job and having married into a more solidly middle class family and having a mortgage. I grew up on free school meals and secondhand clothes. I'm very grateful to be relatively shielded from that world and its insecurity now.

Loads of my mates are train drivers. Technically a manual job, but they earn almost double my salary, and the manual element is limited to pressing buttons and switches in an air-conditioned cab. Some of them left school with no qualifications and joined in BR days. A couple of the younger ones went to grammar schools and did A-levels. Their role in society and the 'guild' style unionism of ASLEF also gives them a lot of power, certainly loads more than a Deliveroo rider. Are they still working class?

Yes, what you're describing there are working class people who've done a good job at defending their collective interests (leaving aside for the moment whatever criticisms we may have of ASLEF's guild unionism). If the rail bosses successfully managed to break the rail unions, slash pay and rewrite their Ts&Cs, would that then re-working-classify train drivers?

 

[nogojones]

The govenor of the Bank of England will always have a better understanding of class. Its central to their function

 

[Pickman's model]

I get that, but I can also see why so many of them are pissed off. They've got into huge debt, that they might never pay off, chasing some mad dream that's been pushed at them, that a degree, masters or whatever will get them a fulfilling career with bare money.

Sorry kidda, get down to B&Q. Them shelves ain't gonna stack themselves

tbh graduates earn on average £100,000 more (if female) or £130,000 more (if male) after loan repayments factored in (Graduates enjoy £100k earnings bonus over lifetime.).
assuming a career of 40 years and a 35 hour week

for women
(100,000/40)/(52 x 35) = £1.37 an hour more than someone without a degree

for men
(130,000/40)/(52 x 35) = £1.79 an hour more than someone without a degree

which i wouldn't have thought a very great incentive

 

[danny la rouge]

It’s irritating that every time we discuss this people think that because Marx’s Capital discusses textile mills and not call centres that his analysis has been superseded by conditions. It hasn’t.

Read the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. The painters and decorators are Uber drivers.

 

[fishfinger]

Isn't it part of the problem that people seem to be conflating caste with class?

 

[butchersapron]

Isn't it part of the problem that people seem to be conflating caste with class?

Status not caste, but even that can and has solidified into effectively operating as caste at times/places. Was one of the great strengths of the labour movement historically and bugbear of many prominent left-intellectuals - perry anderson in particular. Which led to many a good finger-wagging and shaking of the intellectuals heads.

 

[danny la rouge]

Isn't it part of the problem that people seem to be conflating caste with class?

But I work for Apple Stores and wear Gucci.

 

[nogojones]

tbh graduates earn on average £100,000 more (if female) or £130,000 more (if male) after loan repayments factored in (Graduates enjoy £100k earnings bonus over lifetime.).
assuming a career of 40 years and a 35 hour week

for women
(100,000/40)/(52 x 35) = £1.37 an hour more than someone without a degree

for men
(130,000/40)/(52 x 35) = £1.79 an hour more than someone without a degree

which i wouldn't have thought a very great incentive

Taking into account those without qualifications that will never or seldom work and spend a life on the margins, the difference between those with degrees and the rest of us scum will be even smaller. I don't have figures and am too lazy to search them out, but I suspect that with the increase in kids accessing higher education and the lack of decent opportunities that that gap will narrow further over the coming years

 

[Raheem]

Yes, what you're describing there are working class people who've done a good job at defending their collective interests (leaving aside for the moment whatever criticisms we may have of ASLEF's guild unionism). If the rail bosses successfully managed to break the rail unions, slash pay and rewrite their Ts&Cs, would that then re-working-classify train drivers?

It would shift their position in the economic hierarchy, so yes "re-working-classify" might be a good term. Not sure about the hyphens though. But no job that typically sees people paying top-rate tax can be considered working-class.

 

[extra dry]

For as a definition of working and middle class, look for things where do people go on holiday, that is if the ruling masters will give you any holidays...

Taking into account those without qualifications that will never or seldom work and spend a life on the margins, the difference between those with degrees and the rest of us scum will be even smaller. I don't have figures and am too lazy to search them out, but I suspect that with the increase in kids accessing higher education and the lack of decent opportunities that that gap will narrow further over the coming years

 

[nogojones]

It would shift their position in the economic hierarchy, so yes "re-working-classify" might be a good term. Not sure about the hyphens though. But no job that typically sees people paying top-rate tax can be considered working-class.

Na. If you and your workmates are tight enough to win decent conditions, then you're a shining example of what the WC should aspire to. I don't go for that labour aristocracy thing. More power to them

 

[butchersapron]

I get that, but I can also see why so many of them are pissed off. They've got into huge debt, that they might never pay off, chasing some mad dream that's been pushed at them, that a degree, masters or whatever will get them a fulfilling career with bare money.

Sorry kidda, get down to B&Q. Them shelves ain't gonna stack themselves

It's not them in that situation i'm on about really, but those who talk for them or activist for them. You know these kids could have been real humans, real people. The others, well...

It would be beyond stupid politically to pretend that this is the default thinking amongst the first lot. The second lot, well, it's just the age-old unexamined but well established prejudice of many well meaning middle class people isn't it?

 

[Dogsauce]

I reckon many U.K. folk claim ‘traditional’ working class heritage in the same way the yanks claim Irish heritage. Just by numbers alone pretty much everyone will have a great great grandad or two that worked down the pit or in the mills. I’ve heard people claiming this sort of ancestry many times.

One of my teachers at school asked us what class we thought we were and just about everyone thought they were middle class. She then told us we were all working class by background (with one exception) because all our parents worked rather than being business owners etc. It’s because there are these traditional working class stereotypes and identity that people don’t consider what their actual place is in the scheme of things is. Pretty much the only time this was covered in school. Weirdly the teacher was an out Liberal Democrat/SDLP supporter (the only teachers at my school that mentioned their politics were Lib Dems, usually with a bit of smugness).