Why anarchism as a method of action doesn't work.

[TremulousTetra]

No, it's a "go search your threads yourself, I'm not doing it for you".

liar. you know it's a ludicrous statement. Nobody who had been a member could say that seriously.

 

[ViolentPanda]

what are the interests of the working class/es? You said the interests were heterogeneous didn't you?

Who am I to define the interests of the working classes?

Speaking for myself, I'd say that the interests of the working classes as people who comprise communities are becoming increasingly heterogeneous, moving further away from solidaristic principles, because of more severe and more prevalent social fractures forcing people to take positions on social and economic matters that are counter to their own long-term benefit, and the sorts of amelioration provided by previous governments (the "bread and circuses") aren't available, so "devil take the hindmost" is seen by some to be necessary.

As for defining what's in the interests of the working classes, I'll leave that to the various Leninists and Trots who're always keen to offer prescriptive "solutions".

 

[ViolentPanda]

liar. you know it's a ludicrous statement. Nobody who had been a member could say that seriously.

Repeating your accusation, rather than going and checking the threads that you posted, won't make the label stick, you know.

But if it makes you feel better/superior/adequate then accuse away, by all means.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Who am I to define the interests of the working classes?

Speaking for myself, I'd say that the interests of the working classes as people who comprise communities are becoming increasingly heterogeneous, moving further away from solidaristic principles, because of more severe and more prevalent social fractures forcing people to take positions on social and economic matters that are counter to their own long-term benefit, and the sorts of amelioration provided by previous governments (the "bread and circuses") aren't available, so "devil take the hindmost" is seen by some to be necessary.

As for defining what's in the interests of the working classes, I'll leave that to the various Leninists and Trots who're always keen to offer prescriptive "solutions".

when you're using the term interests, where is underlined, do you mean interests as in what they are interested in, or interests as in their what would be in their long-term benefit/interest?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Repeating your accusation, rather than going and checking the threads that you posted, won't make the label stick, you know.

But if it makes you feel better/superior/adequate then accuse away, by all means.

You've said it. You back up your statement?

Anyway, forget it. Your entitled to make a mistake like anybody else.just don't keep repeating it, because it isn't true.just like the other stuff you said earlier.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Tried to unite in SA & RESPECT. My honest opinion. Think they may have been too hasty, didn''t spend enough time winning people to common cause ie the SP in the SA. Having said that, not sure the SP were winnable, as the SP and the SWP had different agendas for the Socialist Alliance. In the crudest terms, the SWP saw the Socialist Alliance as some kind of alliance of revolutionaries and reformists seeking to build a mass alliance occupying the ground of old Labour where the revolutionaries would have been in a minority, but at least in the organisation, whereas I think the Socialist party, I emphasise I think, the SP saw Socialist Alliance as being in alliance of revolutionaries, or at least those to the left of the Labour Party. This left everybody suspicious of why the Socialist workers party was bending over backwards to accommodate reformist style views. Some involved the Socialist Alliance and respect accused the SWP of wanting to control the organisations, but this is in contradiction to its clearly stated, and often stated position, of wanting revolutionaries to be a minority in a mass [well at least big] working-class alliance.

there is so much distrust going in all directions, I am not picking on anyone in particular, that I don't think United left is possible. I am quite glad Socialist worker seems to have moved away from this line with the expulsion of John Reese Lindsey German, etc. [though very sorry to loose such fine comrades.]

If Anarchist's seem more united wherever you are, good. Get involved with them, and do stuff.

This one win must dishonest post of 2012? ... and its only February...

You are either incredibly naive RMP3 or a liar

actually Dennis, I wanted to apologise, and say it is not fair for me to mention the socialist party as having any part in the Socialist Alliance becoming the part of the Respect alliance. The socialist party left a long time before.

I am interested though, have I misrepresented the agenda of the socialist party for the Socialist Alliance? Did they see it as an alliance of left of Labour socialist's, I kind of revolutionaries Alliance?

 

[articul8]

Fabians are the exception that proves the rule, surely?

Who are you calling a fucking Fabian?

 

[butchersapron]

You.

 

[articul8]

never been one - and never intend to

 

[butchersapron]

Your intentions are neither here nor there.

 

[articul8]

objectively neither my class background nor politics are Fabian either

 

[audiotech]

the SWP seem to be one of the best recruiters for the anarchist movement in the UK! - Would you consider yourself a left commie or anarchist or similar now AT ?

Tooting popular front with a smidgin of tankie.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who are you calling a fucking Fabian?

You, you canting cunt.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You've said it. You back up your statement?

Anyway, forget it. Your entitled to make a mistake like anybody else.just don't keep repeating it, because it isn't true.just like the other stuff you said earlier.

Fuck right off, you condescending little shit-weasel.

 

[articul8]

You, you canting cunt.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The rolleyes smilie is a better reply than the usual reformist "let's change Labour from the inside" crap you spout, I'll give you that much.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I can't find the quote. Seem to remember earlier in the thread being rebuked for using the term working-class. Don't remember much of an explanation, just a instruction that I shouldn't use the term. if I am wrong, I will apologise. No problem.

He said he preferred the term classes, doesn't sound much like an instruction to me.

I have never said anything other than I am not a paid-up member, haven't read any of their publications for getting on 10 years besides the odd article here and there, and have virtually no influence from them these days beyond still running www.resistanceMP.org.uk [and even that is rather ramshackle, as I still haven't put up the files four 2011] and going down as a tourist now and again to Marxism.

But you're still a convinced SWPer - the only difference between you and much of the membership is that they pay subs and you don't. At least they've got the courage of their convictions.

I want the emancipation of the working class by the working-class. The reason being you cannot create a classless society any other way. I've never met a single member of the SWP who wouldn't agree with that, have you?

In words they agree, yes. And I'm sure most think that's what they're working towards - I certainly did when I was a member. And I'm sure most of the membership believe that's what they're doing. But that's just words - the whole point of the paragraph that's a reply to was that we judge people by their actions, not their words. And in this instance, just as with the mainstream parties, those actions tell a very different story. They believe in it in theory (sort of, in a kind of self-contradictory way) but not in practice.

 

[TremulousTetra]

He said he preferred the term classes, doesn't sound much like an instruction to me.

seriously? Have you got the post number?not the way I remember it. However, if that's the case, no problem my bad. Apologies all round.

But you're still a convinced SWPer - the only difference between you and much of the membership is that they pay subs and you don't. At least they've got the courage of their convictions.

yes fair comment. I have very few convictions these days. Pretty much think we've blew every chance we had [meaning the left in general, not just the SWP]

In words they agree, yes. And I'm sure most think that's what they're working towards - I certainly did when I was a member. And I'm sure most of the membership believe that's what they're doing. But that's just words - the whole point of the paragraph that's a reply to was that we judge people by their actions, not their words. And in this instance, just as with the mainstream parties, those actions tell a very different story. They believe in it in theory (sort of, in a kind of self-contradictory way) but not in practice.

well that is quite refreshing. People like pickman suggest they intentionally fuck the working-class movement. People like VP suggest a central committee have no intention of talk of trying to create a classless society.

Bit of a loaded question, what you mean by most of the membership? And not all?

and what does this mean exactly "They believe in it in theory (sort of, in a kind of self-contradictory way) but not in practice." The first bit first contradictory etc, and then a couple of specific examples on the not in practice.

if you don't mind me asking, what is your politics?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Can't be arsed with quotes so I'll just answer that in the order you've posted it.

Can't be arsed to look for the post but I've got no reason to make it up, and don't you think his subsequent posts, particularly the one in reply to my post where I disagreed with him, suggest that this is what he meant anyway?

Fair enough.

I think saying they intentionally fuck things up is an oversimplification. They're so convinced by their own rhetoric that they really believe they're the only ones with any answers. So if they see a movement or whatever that's growing, but that they can't control, they'll fuck it up. Not because they want to fuck over the w/c but because they think this is the best thing for the working class. We just don't know what's good for us is all.

It's not a loaded question because it's not a question. But by most I mean err... most. I know there's some in there purely to boost their own ego. The SWP isn't alone in this, I'd be surprised if there was a political organisation in the world, nevermind the UK, that didn't have any such people in its membership.

This thread is full of ecamples, the SA being one of them. It's self-contradictory because they go on about the self-emancipation of the working class, whilst at the same time setting up "united fronts" with Tories, slum landlords and strike breakers. They know what the working class wants, even if we've not realised that's what we want yet.

I'm a Marxist. I'm in the SP.

 

[DotCommunist]

RMP3 is not a troll, whatever some people claim. He's sincere.

I really cannot tell. Every thread he does extending fraternal comradely words seems to end as this one has.

 

[TremulousTetra]

RMP3 is not a troll, whatever some people claim. He's sincere.

Many trolls, though, must envy RMP3 his ability to wind up Anarcho-Wotsits. There are more than 440 posts on this thread and more than half of them are from indignant Anarcho-Wotsits, telling RMP3 off for some supposed error or other.

is not hard though is it.

 

[butchersapron]

A really great wind-up where 1/4 of the post are his - and given the time and effort he must put into crayoning out his thoughts...well, what a great wind up...

 

[JHE]

is not hard though is it.

Some are just as easy to offend as Dhimmi-Trots.

 

[TremulousTetra]

I really cannot tell. Every thread he does extending fraternal comradely words seems to end as this one has.

I know, I do tend to rise to the baiting by VP Pickman etc.I shouldnt let them get under my skin.

 

[TremulousTetra]

A really great wind-up where 1/4 of the post are his - and give the time and effort he must put into crayoning out his thoughts...well,what a great wind up...

liar.

 

[TremulousTetra]

Can't be arsed with quotes so I'll just answer that in the order you've posted it.

Can't be arsed to look for the post but I've got no reason to make it up, and don't you think his subsequent posts, particularly the one in reply to my post where I disagreed with him, suggest that this is what he meant anyway?

I'll believe you then, and apologise to both you and violent Panda. Sorry Panda.

Fair enough.

don't know what thatis in response to, but it doesn't matter.

I think saying they intentionally fuck things up is an oversimplification. They're so convinced by their own rhetoric that they really believe they're the only ones with any answers. So if they see a movement or whatever that's growing, but that they can't control, they'll fuck it up. Not because they want to fuck over the w/c but because they think this is the best thing for the working class. We just don't know what's good for us is all.

just two things on that. I generally sort of agree with you, would just squew your remarks this way. in my opinion,the first thing to realise if they don't consider the rest of the revolutionary left, the working-class. The rest of the revolutionaries left may may not be working class people, but that is not the focus of the SWP when they talk about working class. Rightly or wrongly they consider those Workers with what Trotsky called capitalist workers party consciousness, to be the working class. Their entire focuses upon these people, mostly with little regard for the rest of the revolutionary left.
it's not so much the don't think anybody else has any answers, it's a matter of once they have an answer, they go for it with everything they got and learn whether answer is right or wrong through practice.Democratic centralism.the above sentiment comes into again. There is no point in the left endlessly debating the merits of each case, better just for each group to compete so to speak, and see which methodology is successful. Diversity is a good thing, but it has to stand on its own feet and and win the fight for existence, in a kind of natural evolution way, if that makes sense.
So when you say, we just don't know what is good for us, it depends who you mean by us.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that s my take on my experience within the party.

This thread is full of ecamples, the SA being one of them. It's self-contradictory because they go on about the self-emancipation of the working class, whilst at the same time setting up "united fronts" with Tories, slum landlords and strike breakers. They know what the working class wants, even if we've not realised that's what we want yet.

I'm a Marxist. I'm in the SP.

I would like to talk about this more, but I'm knackered. Going to bed. I will come back to if you don't mind.

 

[butchersapron]

I mind.

 

[frogwoman]

re: slum landlords and that, when did the swp do this? i know about the tories/uaf thing but what was this about?

 

[butchersapron]

That's what RESPECT did.

 

[frogwoman]

respect did a lot of things - i just remember them more for the courting of open islamists etc but what was the slum landlord thing?