Why anarchism as a method of action doesn't work.

[Athos]

If I had my way we'd be putting these questions to him in a rather different environment

Steady on Comrade, there's no need. The more he witters on, the more he digs a grave for his own confused ideas.

Although I disagree with almost all of what he says, that's not what bothers me - it's the persistent misrepresentation of anarchism and, worse, of other posters' positions.

It's a shame because he's obviously earnest in his beliefs, and understands some of what he's talking about, and dedicates much time and effort. If only it was less divisive, dogmatic and dishonest.

Meantime, I try (but usually fail) not to get drawn in by his nonsense, or to treat him as a dialectical device. Because surely nobody here takes his position seriously?

 

[chilango]

He had an interesting point to make, but refuses to make it.

 

[Athos]

He had an interesting point to make, but refuses to make it.

If the point was that he disagrees with substitutionism, then I'm sure most people agree.

What I can't agree with is that workers taking action which has not sanctioned by some controlling body (based on 'the will of the majority') is substitutionism. In fact, the opposite is true: when that other entity attempts to dictate to individual workers how they should behave in order to bring about revolution, that is trying to substitute its will for theirs. For that entity to lead the struggle.

I'd be interested to see RMP3's definition of substitutionism.

 

[chilango]

Innit.

The role of the activist in relation to mass struggle is a valid question to explore. One that anarchists et al.(The sits wrote some interesting stuff on this, as have autonomists) have investigated repeatedly.

rmp3, rightly, found this question emerging again in relation to the occupy movement. Sadly, he hasn't been able to articulate this question without slipping into incoherent dogma.

 

[Athos]

Innit.

The role of the activist in relation to mass struggle is a valid question to explore. One that anarchists et al.(The sits wrote some interesting stuff on this, as have autonomists) have investigated repeatedly.

rmp3, rightly, found this question emerging again in relation to the occupy movement. Sadly, he hasn't been able to articulate this question without slipping into incoherent dogma.

As usual, he was sidetracked by his anti-anarchism mania.

 

[barney_pig]

The sad reality for rmp3 is that many/most of those who engage with him on here are ex members of the SWP/is so, unlike him, we actually have some knowledge of what we speak.

 

[ViolentPanda]

you were the one whining about my editing your post, I quote the full thing and you're still whining.

as pickmans would say, explain or stfu. also still no link to my alleged comments about Vanguardism?

I've found several links, but why would I waste my time giving you a link? After all, I am "fucking mad"!

Anyone else wishing to see for themselves what I say about vanguardism, and have a laff at rmp3's efforts to avoid the charge, can read rmp3's "If anarchists didn't exist, the coppers would have to invent them" thread. It's another piece of vituperative bitchiness from him, and one where he embarrasses himself even worse than here.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That article stresses the importance of not fracturing ends from means. And of trying to live freely now, rather than making freedom contingent upon some far off event i.e. revolution. And of the impossibility of one group delivering freedom to another. The same points which, when I made them, didn't receive the same reception from you.

rmp3 trying to play "favourites"?

'cos everyone craves his approval/endorsement, you know.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so where's the link i asked for?

There's only one-way traffic on rmp3s highway.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There is some really great body language going on in the audience. Occasional "that's interesting! I'm listening eagerly" postures spread in amongst the far more prevalent "what the fuck am I doing here?" and "when is lunch?" postures.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If the point was that he disagrees with substitutionism, then I'm sure most people agree.

What I can't agree with is that workers taking action which has not sanctioned by some controlling body (based on 'the will of the majority') is substitutionism. In fact, the opposite is true: when that other entity attempts to dictate to individual workers how they should behave in order to bring about revolution, that is trying to substitute its will for theirs. For that entity to lead the struggle.

The June 1953 revolution in East Germany is probably the finest modern example of the working classes taking responsibility for the emancipation of the working classes, and yet, contrary to the Leninist prescription, there was no controlling body, and it was that very fact that made it so difficult for the state to nay-say, even though the state controlled all the media.

 

[The39thStep]

anyone convinced after 400 plus posts that anarchism as a method of organising does work yet?

 

[chilango]

anyone convinced after 400 plus posts that anarchism as a method of organising does work yet?

Nope. But then I wasn't anyway.

 

[The39thStep]

Don't get me wrong they do a good job in keeping vegan food alive as a lifestyle issue but apart from that I don't think their business plan is as ambitious as it could be.

 

[eoin_k]

good link eoin.a very very good article, with much food for thought. Thanks.

Stop thanking me. I feel complicit enough in your little endevour as it is. As if I have naively directed a vampire to a feeding opportunity.

 

[Athos]

anyone convinced after 400 plus posts that anarchism as a method of organising does work yet?

A strange thing to say, given that the anarchists on this thread didn't post here with an intention of organising anything.

 

[Athos]

Don't get me wrong they do a good job in keeping vegan food alive as a lifestyle issue but apart from that I don't think their business plan is as ambitious as it could be.

Don't forget the cider, squat and dog on a string.

Don't think this meme will ever really take off, I'm afraid.

 

[The39thStep]

A strange thing to say, given that the anarchists on this thread didn't post here with an intention of organising anything.

par for the course I'm afraid

 

[Athos]

par for the course I'm afraid

Hur. Hur. Hur.

 

[ViolentPanda]

par for the course I'm afraid

Well, you know what gets said about those who stand on the sidelines and criticise...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hur. Hur. Hur.

Careful, your sides may split!

 

[JHE]

RMP3 is not a troll, whatever some people claim. He's sincere.

Many trolls, though, must envy RMP3 his ability to wind up Anarcho-Wotsits. There are more than 440 posts on this thread and more than half of them are from indignant Anarcho-Wotsits, telling RMP3 off for some supposed error or other.

 

[quinny518]

Most boring thread ever, can't believe I actually read a fair bit of that twoddle.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Most boring thread ever, can't believe I actually read a fair bit of that twoddle.

Almost the most boring post ever, can't believe I only felt dizzy reading it, rather than falling asleep.

 

[cantsin]

There is some really great body language going on in the audience. Occasional "that's interesting! I'm listening eagerly" postures spread in amongst the far more prevalent "what the fuck am I doing here?" and "when is lunch?" postures.

got to admit, had a bit a moment standing back in the mid-late 80's, first marxism ,right fist in the air,singing the Internationale just behind Chris Dean , with Cliff up on the stage . It soon passed, but still....

 

[romeo2001]

If you can't cope with a few narky anarchists how you gonna cope arguing your case with "the working class" who may often be a lot less "on your side" than VP is?

he wont need to argue - he'll just appear and the light shining from his halo will guide "the unclean" to the promised land

 

[audiotech]

Can't remember which one, but there's a recording of a speech at one Marxism on rmp3's site and you can clearly hear some distressed Mother shouting: "I want my son back". That was a Scientology moment and confirmed for me that I was correct in leaving the organisation when I did.

 

[dennisr]

I was correct in leaving the organisation when I did.

the SWP seem to be one of the best recruiters for the anarchist movement in the UK! - Would you consider yourself a left commie or anarchist or similar now AT ?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can't remember which one, but there's a recording of a speech at one Marxism on rmp3's site and you can clearly hear some distressed Mother shouting: "I want my son back". That was a Scientology moment and confirmed for me that I was correct in leaving the organisation when I did.

Current Swappies get enraged at accusations of being cult-like, but to be fair, nowhere near as enraged as members of the AWL do if you accuse them of it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

the SWP seem to be one of the best recruiters for the anarchist movement in the UK!

I know a fair few members of the SP who joined as a deliberate choice after exposure to the SWP, so it seems to drive people to more points of the political compass than just anarchism.