Who will be the next Labour leader?

[Proper Tidy]

It is but it is also somewhat at odds with her lack of criticism of the UC. Even a "better supported" UC would be (incredibly) paternalistic.

Yeah. Also very clear nandy is ticking boxes with what she says, sincerity is questionable, so not wanting to spook the horses on UC, mild criticisms and overall praise for blair and corbyn. Find the support for nandy from some quarters interesting, imo she's fairly typical soft left politically

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Lisa Nandy and Thornbury might actuallly do a bit better than I first thought...

Anyone pushing a coherent and foreful industrial strategy and policy which will ruffle feathers and target neglected areas gets my vote.

Thornberry wont be doing that unless you mean Islington...
and while personable, we have yet to see Nandy doing that. On Radio 4 this morning interviewed by that smarmy Tory git Robinson she didn’t articulate one industrial policy, but merely tamely returned the gentle lobbed pseudo-questions from Mr Muppet while pretending she doesn’t hate Corbyn. So much for honesty: at least you knew where ‘stab him in the front’ Phillips stood.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Just on Nandy again though. She is an excellent communicator and I agree with a lot of her analysis of what the problems are. But she remains light on solutions and policy ideas. Maybe this is the campaign strategy or maybe she hasn’t got any...

I strongly surmise being light on solutions is her strategy: because if she doesn’t support any anti-capitalist policies we are back to Ed Milband-lite....

 

[Larry O'Hara]

RLB backs open selection. Another good proposal!

Long-Bailey backs open selections in "democratic revolution" plan - LabourList

Labour leadership candidate Rebecca Long-Bailey is set to reveal her support for open parliamentary candidate selections in a…

labourlist.org

i agree but while necessary not sufficient...

 

[Gramsci]

To add another comment Lisa Nandy made on radio this morning was that Labour should argue a positive case for immigration even if that was not popular.

 

[treelover]

Yeah. Also very clear nandy is ticking boxes with what she says, sincerity is questionable, so not wanting to spook the horses on UC, mild criticisms and overall praise for blair and corbyn. Find the support for nandy from some quarters interesting, imo she's fairly typical soft left politically

She was also critical of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown for not doing enough in the 1990s to overturn Margaret Thatcher’s economic legacy.


“I’m not going to trash the legacy of the last Labour government because things like the minimum wage were complete game-changers in towns like Wigan, and the investment that went into health and education was really important.


“But it is certainly true to say that the consensus that Thatcher built lasted all the way through the New Labour years.


Advertisement

“I came into politics after 10 years working in the voluntary sector with homeless teenagers, first of all, and then with child refugees.


“And the reason I did was out of frustration with a system under the last Labour government that took small amounts from people at the very top of the system and handed it with conditions to those at the bottom.”

Lisa Nandy clashes with Piers Morgan over Meghan racism claims

Labour leadership hopeful asks ‘how on earth’ presenter would know about suffering prejudice

www.theguardian.com

not from speech though

She has just done a really good and very detailed speech defending the welfare state, benefits and claimants, afaik, Corbyn never made a similar speech,

though she did seem to believe Blair/Brown's welfare to work programmes had value

 

[treelover]

This is spot on. Corbynism has too often presented the working class as victims, weak and in need of paternal support (from the state).

Other posters are right about the need for caution and preciseness on this issue. But Nandy is absolutely right on this because WC people don’t see themselves in the main in the terms that Labour did. The key, for me anyway, is to root politics in terms of equality of opportunity and levelling the playing field and away from both meritocracy and Corbyn’s obsession with food banks/UC.

Just on Nandy again though. She is an excellent communicator and I agree with a lot of her analysis of what the problems are. But she remains light on solutions and policy ideas. Maybe this is the campaign strategy or maybe she hasn’t got any...

I agree with you to a point, a lot of focus groups have said they didn't like being seen as victims, ex miners, de-industrialed, etc, but the fact is, may are victims, foodbank use is massive, UC is a disasters, sanctions and testing is cruel, we are going like America where all this is just a given, the one show has Football Fans for food banks as heroes, and were cheered by the audinece, they may be, but now as Smith wanted, they are an integral part of the welfare state. I do think that any welfare/social security policy does need to give agency back to people, but that was NL's approach, welfare to work, skill training, etc, and it ended with bullying claimants and sanctions, Queen Emma of A4E making milllions from forced claimants and then turbo-charged by the Tories, many suicides

 

[SpookyFrank]

Do they really, though? A melting block of ice is apparently more of a vote-winner for Boris Johnson than Boris Johnson himself. Perhaps it's time to give 'And now, speaking for Her Majesty's Opposition, the judgemental silence of an empty space' a chance.

#onlyhalfjoking

In a setup where the media will only let you challenge the tories if you move to within a rizla's breadth of tory policies, the only winning move is not to play.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

In a setup where the media will only let you challenge the tories if you move to within a rizla's breadth of tory policies, the only winning move is not to play.

 

[Mr Moose]

Yeah. Also very clear nandy is ticking boxes with what she says, sincerity is questionable, so not wanting to spook the horses on UC, mild criticisms and overall praise for blair and corbyn. Find the support for nandy from some quarters interesting, imo she's fairly typical soft left politically

You would have thought she would be rejected out of hand for her support for Smith. It’s not long shot to imagine her moving quite a long way to the right in office, beyond Starmer or Thornberry.

But perfect isn’t on offer here and with a party membership firmly to the left it’s open to take a broader view on what she has to offer.

 

[treelover]

I agree with you to a point, but on social security no, she wrote to say she have voted against Smith's WRB(she was in late pregnancy) which of course most LP MP's abstained

BTw, isn't it time to update the poll, she is third at moment in other polls!

 

[Gramsci]

RLB backs open selection. Another good proposal!

Long-Bailey backs open selections in "democratic revolution" plan - LabourList

Labour leadership candidate Rebecca Long-Bailey is set to reveal her support for open parliamentary candidate selections in a…

labourlist.org

Yes. Read that. I wonder how the other candidates will respond.

I also think local councils need a shake up. Labour Cllrs in my area treat the being a Cllr as a job for life. I would like to see mandatory reselection for Labour Cllrs. At moment in Lambeth its selection of candidates is done through committee run by the New Labour clique who control the local party. Including getting rid of Cllrs who don't tow the line. Even if they are popular ( stick up for residents).

It would be good if the Labour party was democratised at local Council level. With much more say for members.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes. Read that. I wonder how the other candidates will respond.

I also think local councils need a shake up. Labour Cllrs in my area treat the being a Cllr as a job for life. I would like to see mandatory reselection for Labour Cllrs. At moment in Lambeth its selection of candidates is done through committee run by the New Labour clique who control the local party. Including getting rid of Cllrs who don't tow the line. Even if they are popular ( stick up for residents).

It would be good if the Labour party was democratised at local Council level. With much more say for members.

it would be good if the labour party at local authority level stopped working for developers and gentrifiers.

 

[YouSir]

it would be good if the labour party at local authority level stopped working for developers and gentrifiers.

Would be miraculous too.

 

[The39thStep]

it would be good if the labour party at local authority level stopped working for developers and gentrifiers.

Unfortunately most regeneration schemes in cities and towns are based on developers and gentrification

 

[Pickman's model]

Unfortunately most regeneration schemes in cities and towns are based on developers and gentrification

if it involves the ejection of then existing population to be replaced by well-heeled interlopers then it's not regeneration at all but gentrification

 

[The39thStep]

if it involves the ejection of then existing population to be replaced by well-heeled interlopers then it's not regeneration at all but gentrification

I take your point but most town centre regeneration is based on building housing with few or none at affordable rents or prices and shopping malls for chain stores. The regeneration is that it creates low skilled retail and catering jobs .

 

[belboid]

She has just done a really good and very detailed speech defending the welfare state, benefits and claimants, afaik, Corbyn never made a similar speech,

he literally won the leadership election because he made a speech condemning cuts to welfare benefits and demanding that Labour oppose them while Andy Burnham (the Lisa Nandy of his day) simply said abstain. Nandy has said she would have voted with Corbyn and maybe she would, but I doubt very much that she would have led the campaign in the first place.

As for detail, the manifesto was full of it, tho Nandy wants to roll back some of those commitments.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Just saw someone refer to Philips’ withdrawing from the leadership contest as being ‘like a Kendall in the wind’. Had to pass it on.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Just saw someone refer to Philips’ withdrawing from the leadership contest as being ‘like a Kendall in the wind’. Had to pass it on.

Full context:

 

[treelover]

One example that I’ll give of how I was crushed in the election campaign was one of my constituents was on a driveway and we were having a chat about whether she was going to vote Labour - her and her husband - and they worked hard, they bought their own home.
And they wanted to have that recognised and they felt that we were a party that was giving handouts and not helping people like them.
And I tried to explain, because I was crushed at that point, because I thought we are the party that’s for you, we’re there to pick you up if you fall on hard times and you lose your job. We want you to do well, we want you to work hard and get paid well and have a decent life, be able to buy your own home, if that’s what you want, be able to go on holiday, and for your children to be given the best possible education so that they can climb whatever ladder they want to, and reach their aspirational goals.
But they didn’t believe we were doing that, despite that being the fundamental principles that drives every single one of us as Labour party members.

Brexit bill set to become law after clearing parliament with Lords amendments all voted out – as it happened

Rolling coverage of the day’s political developments as they happened

www.theguardian.com

Long bailey goes for the aspirational vote?

Guardian compares it to Blair.

 

[andysays]

Long bailey goes for the aspirational vote?

Guardian compares it to Blair.

Judging by that quote, she appears to be all about individual aspiration, not about the community aspiration which (I think) chilango mentioned above.

And if RLB and Labour can't go beyond individual aspiration, where the Tories will beat them every time, towards some sort of aspiration to change society for the better for everyone, which is beyond owning a house with a driveway and having a nice holiday, then she and they will lose.

 

[treelover]

f you look at voting figures for the so-called Red Wall from 1997-2019 you will see that there was no Red Wall because the Labour vote collapsed between 1997-2010, so nothing to do with Corbyn, in fact the figures picked up considerably in 2017 before the manic media onslaught, antisemitism myth and other smears took hold as well as the reduction of a whole election to Remain/Leave binary non-thought.
As an example, here's Redcar (vote share for Labour):
1997: 67.3%
2001: 60.3%
2005; 51.4%
2010: 45.2%
2015: 43.9%
2017: 55.5%

Why isn't Blair FULLY blamed? Oh no, it was Corbyn, 'toxic on the doorstep.

posted on CIF, looks like it was Blair/Brown/Milliband where the rot set in.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Obviously the red wall was a load of bollocks, it was only invented six months ago, and labour's separation from its w/c base developing from new labour surely well established. Antisemitism myth tho

 

[treelover]

Those figures don’t mean much out of context. You’re ignoring the effect of other parties like the Lib Dems – who actually won the seat in 2010 (so your figure is wrong) – and the dreaded UKIP. 1997 was actually a bit of an anomaly so you can’t start there. Let’s look at the full series of stats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcar_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Labour share of vote in Redcar:

1974 – 60% in February and then 54% in October
1979 – 54%
1983 – 41%
1987 – 47%
1992 – 56%
1997 – 67%
2001 – 60%
2005 – 51%
2010 – 33% (second place to Lib Dems on 45%)
2015 – 44%
2017 – 56%
2019 – 37% (second place to Tories on 46%)

The Soc Dem candidate got 26% in 1983. UKIP got 18% in 2015 but were probably absorbed into the Tory vote in 2017.

2017 wasn’t that bad – it’s the same result as 1992 and look what happened after that. After a vote of 56% in 1992 Labour in Redcar went up to 67% with Blair as leader whereas after a vote of 56% in 2017 they went down to 37%. I think your analysis is correct. Blair had the media on his side. It certainly helps. Oh and there’s the Brexit issue, too.

Someone has challenged these figures, too complicated for me.

 

[chilango]

Judging by that quote, she appears to be all about individual aspiration, not about the community aspiration which (I think) chilango mentioned above.

And if RLB and Labour can't go beyond individual aspiration, where the Tories will beat them every time, towards some sort of aspiration to change society for the better for everyone, which is beyond owning a house with a driveway and having a nice holiday, then she and they will lose.

Indeed.

Unfortunately individualized aspiration is so embedded in society now it's hard to conceptualise beyond it.

It feeds into, and feeds off, ideas around choice, and "failures" (like being poor or sick) being a result of poor choices, not "trying hard enough" and a lack of aspiration.

We see this in current education debates around "the soft tyranny of low expectations", "growth mindset" and interventions to raise individualized aspiration.

Social mobility, and the lack of it, is framed like this too. Around the need to "realize the potential" of talented individuals.

I could go on...

 

[treelover]

Both Nandy and now Bailey have used the very loaded term, 'handout' when talking about social security.

 

[sihhi]

Both Nandy and now Bailey have used the very loaded term, 'handout' when talking about social security.

There's much to criticise about RLB but it is clear she is quoting others' words.

 

[Gramsci]

it would be good if the labour party at local authority level stopped working for developers and gentrifiers.

At our Lambeth level its been for years run by "New" Labour.

As one of our Cllrs once said to me years back "there is to much social housing" in my Council Ward. The New Labour idea was that Council housing was part of the post war welfare state which was out of date in the modern world. Part of dependency culture. The new idea was "positive gentrification" and "mixed sustainable communities". Giviing people a hand up not a handout. Which meant in practise regeneration of estates / local areas to bring in the middle class. New Labour bought into idea of "sink estates".

He is stll a Cllr. A lot of Cllrs owe their careers in the party to Tony Blair era. They never supported Corbyn. Even my Cllr quoted above. And he has has always been a complete loyalist . They saw Corbyn as so alien to there way of thinking that they could not support him in any way.

Ive nothing personal against my Cllrs but its necessary to see the ideology they hold. This is how they still think.

( to add I bunp into an ex New Labour Cllr sometimes. He did say to me perhaps they should have built Council housing in Blair years)

They dont like the term New Labour. Its now they are "progressive".

Bringing it back to the leadership. Lisa Nandy going on about "aspiration" rings alarm bells for me. Its how my New Labour Council think.

For example imo gentrification is a class issue. This isnt about portraying the working class as victims. Its a fact and any Labour Cllr in central London should just say that. Even if their powers to do much about it are limited.

Im really concerned that Labour party hopefuls like Lisa Nandy are using the same language as New Labour did years ago.

 

[Marty1]

Lisa Nandy to be nominated by the GMB.

Comes out top with Emily Thornberry in focus group.

WATCH: Focus group rejects Labour leadership frontrunners - LabourList

A focus group has rejected the Labour leadership frontrunners, instead saying that they could see Lisa Nandy or…

labourlist.org