Who will be the next Labour leader?

[treelover]

Thornberry: big attack on NL's not doing anything to counter de-industralisation during their reign.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I'd go for Starmer.
For a start he'd take Labour back to the centre ground which is where they need to be to win elections.
Not just that but with his background as an ex-lawyer, his forensic knowledge and attention to detail over the workings of Brexit, will really mean he would wipe the floor clean of Boris and his bluster.
He comes across as a highly competent politician and I believe he out of the candidates would stand the best chance of making Labour electable or at least an effective opposition.

Did Starmer completely fucking up the last election and being absolutely useless just pass you by?

"Forensic knowledge".

 

[Jeff Robinson]

It goes without say that Jess Philips could barely complete a whole sentence and was entirely useless. Not that the electorate give a shit about basic competence though, given their endorsement of the Boris-Vermin regime.

 

[Supine]

Did Starmer completely fucking up the last election and being absolutely useless just pass you by?

"Forensic knowledge".

How did he fuck it up, he was sidelined wasn't he? I hardly saw him public during the election.

 

[Mr Moose]

How did he fuck it up, he was sidelined wasn't he? I hardly saw him public during the election.

He means as key architect of the ‘disastrous’ policy, neatly forgetting that momentum, unison and most every other fecker also backed an increasingly Remain position.

Look to the future everyone.

 

[DJWrongspeed]

Thornberry calls PM a 'callous liar' in furious Labour hustings rant

Emily Thornberry described Boris Johnson as a "callous liar" who has a "woman problem" in a furious rant during the Labour leadership hustings.

www.standard.co.uk

Go Emily ! Telling it like it is.....symptomatic of the weird world we live in now as well.

 

[SpackleFrog]

He means as key architect of the ‘disastrous’ policy, neatly forgetting that momentum, unison and most every other fecker also backed an increasingly Remain position.

Look to the future everyone.

Not everyone backed the disastrous Remain position, but the point in this case is that Starmer led the charge to do so.

 

[two sheds]

Not sure i like the idea of a salesperson for labour. Who are less trusted then salespeople apart from politicians of course.

 

[Mr Moose]

Thornberry calls PM a 'callous liar' in furious Labour hustings rant

Emily Thornberry described Boris Johnson as a "callous liar" who has a "woman problem" in a furious rant during the Labour leadership hustings.

www.standard.co.uk

Go Emily ! Telling it like it is.....symptomatic of the weird world we live in now as well.

She is telling it like it is, but I doubt if it really has much traction. People who voted for Boris already have a pretty good idea of what he is like and many of them who Labour are targeting have a dim view of ‘Maggie, Maggie, Maggie’ politics.

First and foremost, Labour needs to be positive with its view of the future while holding Johnson to account on his responsibilities, like the cost of living. His character is a weapon to be used at the right moment not as an obsession.

 

[two sheds]

He means as key architect of the ‘disastrous’ policy, neatly forgetting that momentum, unison and most every other fecker also backed an increasingly Remain position.

Look to the future everyone.

I didn't really see it becoming increasingly Remain - fairly constantly saying we need to negotiate a better Leave deal with Europe and then give people the choice. It looked to me like we underestimated just how fucked off people were with the constant voting down the (crap) leave deal and they voted for the 'fuck it' option.

If it was increasingly Remain then I'd have thought it was in reaction to the increasing likelihood of Johnson crashing out with a No Deal and a trade deal with the US that will make us act even more like the 51st state.

 

[Hollis]

For some reason RLB reminds me of Lord Charles..



I guess that puts Lansman in the Ray Alan role.

As you were...

 

[killer b]

The centrist fantasy of Lansman as an evil puppet master is a bit fucking rich tbh

 

[Proper Tidy]

Nothing dodgy about the portrayal of the old jewish bloke as the string puller in the shadows obv

 

[Lefty1992]

If you want to debate sensibly you have to see both sides of the coin. Not only did Labour set the agenda about austerity and the NHS it also saw off May’s Govt after making it powerless for two years. The Tories ended up doing a number of things to neutralise it, like on the minimum wage. The scale of the reaction to Labour, the sheer effort expended to defeat itshows it was doing something.

Ultimately Labour couldn’t square Brexit and when it couldn’t it foolishly continued with an exposed and by then widely unpopular leader. But it was not all failure by any means.

Don’t think that a lurch to the right solves this. There are other lines of attack for the press, other contradictions to deal with if it does.

Agree about austerity and the NHS and Labour moving the goalposts on those things and moving the centre ground to the left. It is true to say that Labour also made sweeping gains in the 2017 election on a radical, socialist manifesto that promised to leave the EU. It was this which ensured May didn't have a majority to get through the Brexit she craved and ultimately led to her own downfall. So yeah, there were lots of successes and no doubt Corbyn faced an unprecedented barrage of hostility from the right-wing media.

That said, the leadership on Brexit was weak and so was Corbyn's handling of the anti-semitism problems in the party. As popular as some of the policies were in his manifesto, it also come across more as a wishlist and I don't think enough people believed him and it therefore wasn't credible. There was also all the baggage he had with the IRA in the past and his willingness to share platforms with other unsavoury people, which the media slaughtered him for. Yes, he had a hard time from the press but every Labour leader does, and it's something that you just have to accept and get on with.

Corbyn wasn't the only problem. Labour's problems go deeper as the party has now lost four elections. So none of Brown, Miliband or Corbyn have been able to reconnect with the working class voters the party has lost. Unions don't have the power they once did and a London-centric Labour has lost touch with the communities it took for granted to win in Scotland and Northern England and inceasingly in Wales. It does well in the metropolitan, student towns and cities but no so well in the left behind towns of the North and Midlands. So any new Labour leader needs to work out how to reconnect with these voters and win them back.
No it doesn't mean doing away with all of Corbyn's policies as things such as renationalisation of railways and higher taxes for the rich are popular with the public, but the party does need a change of direction away from Corbynism and Momentum. It's given the party a platform that they now need to build on. Nandy or Starmer would be my choices.

 

[cantsin]

Agree about austerity and the NHS and Labour moving the goalposts on those things and moving the centre ground to the left. It is true to say that Labour also made sweeping gains in the 2017 election on a radical, socialist manifesto that promised to leave the EU. It was this which ensured May didn't have a majority to get through the Brexit she craved and ultimately led to her own downfall. So yeah, there were lots of successes and no doubt Corbyn faced an unprecedented barrage of hostility from the right-wing media.

That said, the leadership on Brexit was weak and so was Corbyn's handling of the anti-semitism problems in the party. As popular as some of the policies were in his manifesto, it also come across more as a wishlist and I don't think enough people believed him and it therefore wasn't credible. There was also all the baggage he had with the IRA in the past and his willingness to share platforms with other unsavoury people, which the media slaughtered him for. Yes, he had a hard time from the press but every Labour leader does, and it's something that you just have to accept and get on with.

Corbyn wasn't the only problem. Labour's problems go deeper as the party has now lost four elections. So none of Brown, Miliband or Corbyn have been able to reconnect with the working class voters the party has lost. Unions don't have the power they once did and a London-centric Labour has lost touch with the communities it took for granted to win in Scotland and Northern England and inceasingly in Wales. It does well in the metropolitan, student towns and cities but no so well in the left behind towns of the North and Midlands. So any new Labour leader needs to work out how to reconnect with these voters and win them back.
No it doesn't mean doing away with all of Corbyn's policies as things such as renationalisation of railways and higher taxes for the rich are popular with the public, but the party does need a change of direction away from Corbynism and Momentum. It's given the party a platform that they now need to build on. Nandy or Starmer would be my choices.

Nandys’ ‘ f*ck the Scots, they’re as bad as the Catalonians, the Nat. bstards’ intervention this week was good vfm, must say

 

[Mr Moose]

I didn't really see it becoming increasingly Remain - fairly constantly saying we need to negotiate a better Leave deal with Europe and then give people the choice. It looked to me like we underestimated just how fucked off people were with the constant voting down the (crap) leave deal and they voted for the 'fuck it' option.

If it was increasingly Remain then I'd have thought it was in reaction to the increasing likelihood of Johnson crashing out with a No Deal and a trade deal with the US that will make us act even more like the 51st state.

You are right there was a dynamic that the different positions reacted to. That was largely set by the ERG, who ensured May's deal failed and then pushed for no deal. That emboldened Remain and put pressure on Labour. As much as that stance did for Labour in certain constituencies it wasn't really resistable with so many voices calling for it, not just on the right, but also the likes of the Momentum left.

 

[treelover]

Why the left keeps losing

www.newstatesman.com

Why the left keeps losing

Anyone have access to this article, some good stuff in the Staggers, but can't afford it.

 

[Mr Moose]

Agree about austerity and the NHS and Labour moving the goalposts on those things and moving the centre ground to the left. It is true to say that Labour also made sweeping gains in the 2017 election on a radical, socialist manifesto that promised to leave the EU. It was this which ensured May didn't have a majority to get through the Brexit she craved and ultimately led to her own downfall. So yeah, there were lots of successes and no doubt Corbyn faced an unprecedented barrage of hostility from the right-wing media.

That said, the leadership on Brexit was weak and so was Corbyn's handling of the anti-semitism problems in the party. As popular as some of the policies were in his manifesto, it also come across more as a wishlist and I don't think enough people believed him and it therefore wasn't credible. There was also all the baggage he had with the IRA in the past and his willingness to share platforms with other unsavoury people, which the media slaughtered him for. Yes, he had a hard time from the press but every Labour leader does, and it's something that you just have to accept and get on with.

Corbyn wasn't the only problem. Labour's problems go deeper as the party has now lost four elections. So none of Brown, Miliband or Corbyn have been able to reconnect with the working class voters the party has lost. Unions don't have the power they once did and a London-centric Labour has lost touch with the communities it took for granted to win in Scotland and Northern England and inceasingly in Wales. It does well in the metropolitan, student towns and cities but no so well in the left behind towns of the North and Midlands. So any new Labour leader needs to work out how to reconnect with these voters and win them back.
No it doesn't mean doing away with all of Corbyn's policies as things such as renationalisation of railways and higher taxes for the rich are popular with the public, but the party does need a change of direction away from Corbynism and Momentum. It's given the party a platform that they now need to build on. Nandy or Starmer would be my choices.

If Labour is going to connect with those towns that formerly voted Labour it has to understand what is important there. People who once may have worked in bigger industries or lived in towns where those industries maintained the town, now have very different working conditions, change jobs frequently, are self-employed or run small businesses. Their values tilt accordingly towards self-reliance and they are less easily supported by Unions, often sceptical of them. They will certainly vote for better services, but above all it's the cost of living, housing, utilities, fuel etc that is at the forefront. Labour doesn't have to abandon its left wing policies, it just needs to ensure that it has practical, easily understood ways to help people at the forefront. It needs to bang on about the cost of living everyday untll the next election, exacting Tory promises and highlighting the gap between Tory rhetoric and reality.

 

[ska invita]

Regarding What Labour Must Do Now I think the party needs a better position re the media.
Options are

1. Do a Blair and suck up. Impossible without Blair-like policies
2. What the current position is/was: pretend it's not happening, rise above it, and then make a little squeak in complaint the day after you lose the election
3. Do a Trump, call the media out for their bias.

I think 3. Fact is Trump is right when he says CNN is fake news. There's a way to do that that isnt as fascistic as Trump, but on all fronts Labour needs to be that bit more combative and forceful.

I expect a rerun of 2 though

 

[Proper Tidy]

Agree about austerity and the NHS and Labour moving the goalposts on those things and moving the centre ground to the left.

So labour 2015-19 was a very effective opposition then, the most effective opposition* in most of our lifetimes when you look at how much they shifted the consensus

*arguably farage/ukip/bxp even more effective from an even weaker position tbf

 

[treelover]

If Labour is going to connect with those towns that formerly voted Labour it has to understand what is important there. People who once may have worked in bigger industries or lived in towns where those industries maintained the town, now have very different working conditions, change jobs frequently, are self-employed or run small businesses. Their values tilt accordingly towards self-reliance and they are less easily supported by Unions, often sceptical of them. They will certainly vote for better services, but above all it's the cost of living, housing, utilities, fuel etc that is at the forefront. Labour doesn't have to abandon its left wing policies, it just needs to ensure that it has practical, easily understood ways to help people at the forefront. It needs to bang on about the cost of living everyday untll the next election, exacting Tory promises and highlighting the gap between Tory rhetoric and reality.

AFAICS, that is what Lisa Nandy has been saying,

 

[steeplejack]

John Curtice outling the utter bind Labour’s new leader faces:

 

[Hollis]

Nothing dodgy about the portrayal of the old jewish bloke as the string puller in the shadows obv

Oh please... - 'cause all the puppetmasters are the Jews aren't they?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Oh please... - 'cause all the puppetmasters are the Jews aren't they?

I know you won't have meant it that way but the focus on lansman and subtext of him as the man in the shadows is deeply dubious

 

[Hollis]

yes fine.. i will plead the Danny Baker defence on that one. But you also have the common figure of the machiavellian adviser /spin doctor in the shadows - Cummings, Timothy, Mandelson etc..

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Regarding What Labour Must Do Now I think the party needs a better position re the media.
Options are

1. Do a Blair and suck up. Impossible without Blair-like policies
2. What the current position is/was: pretend it's not happening, rise above it, and then make a little squeak in complaint the day after you lose the election
3. Do a Trump, call the media out for their bias.

I think 3. Fact is Trump is right when he says CNN is fake news. There's a way to do that that isnt as fascistic as Trump, but on all fronts Labour needs to be that bit more combative and forceful.

I expect a rerun of 2 though

absolutely, the only strategy is to declare an all out war against the vermin media.

 

[Gramsci]

If Labour is going to connect with those towns that formerly voted Labour it has to understand what is important there. People who once may have worked in bigger industries or lived in towns where those industries maintained the town, now have very different working conditions, change jobs frequently, are self-employed or run small businesses. Their values tilt accordingly towards self-reliance and they are less easily supported by Unions, often sceptical of them. They will certainly vote for better services, but above all it's the cost of living, housing, utilities, fuel etc that is at the forefront. Labour doesn't have to abandon its left wing policies, it just needs to ensure that it has practical, easily understood ways to help people at the forefront. It needs to bang on about the cost of living everyday untll the next election, exacting Tory promises and highlighting the gap between Tory rhetoric and reality.

I would say this applies to my are inner London. But they did not stop voting Labour. My neighbours and workmates are in the categories you post about. So they got the mesaage in inner London.

Cost of living is big issue in inner London. Its an expensive city that runs off the back of low paid labour ( with over the years increasingly insecure conditions of employment- zero hours, so called " self employment" being the norm for the working class I know ).

In inner London also running a small business / shop etc was considered a good alternative for Black people. As historically racism meant they found it diffciult to get employment. But they still are Labour supporters.

So the question is why in inner London the vote held up and not in other areas of the country where the working class have similar problems,

 

[Mr Moose]

absolutely, the only strategy is to declare an all out war against the vermin media.

Starmer has done a Billy Bragg and won’t talk to Sun reporters.

 

[cantsin]

yes fine.. i will plead the Danny Baker defence on that one. But you also have the common figure of the machiavellian adviser /spin doctor in the shadows - Cummings, Timothy, Mandelson etc..

Yep, Lansman with his twitter account, and open/public heading up of one of the higher profile Lab Party linked organisations of recent times, is v much the ' machiavellian adviser /spin doctor in the shadows' ...

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Starmer has done a Billy Bragg and won’t talk to Sun reporters.

Fighting talk from RLB