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what's wrong with economics

You can try to change it if you wish, but you should suck it up when you lose. I get the feeling you're a young person. As you get older you realize how interdependent we all are. Most people spend the bulk of their lives figuring out how to cooperate with people they don't like very much, not compete.



By existing within the bounds of the country you are using the services. You benefit when others benefit. Someone else using a road to transport goods and make the economy move, serves you. Having a health service that prevents communicable disease, serves you. Having police and military to protect society, protects you.

As far as welfare recipients go, I think you've bought some right-wing mantra that dismisses the contributions of the lower classes. At least in the US, many welfare recipients work. They just don't make a living wage. This wage subsidy in the form of "welfare" benefits their employers more than it does them. Its corporate welfare. As a society, we could easily solve the sub-survival wage issue by raising the minimum wage, at much less cost to the government.

Also, welfare recipients do pay taxes. They pay social security taxes, sales taxes, payroll taxes, gas taxes, property taxes (in the form of rent). The lowest income people pay a higher percentage of their income in tax than the highest income people do, as billionaire Warren Buffett is often points out.

Contrary to the stereotype you're presenting most people want to contribute. I think you'll also find that most welfare recipients have contributed to the commons at some point in their lives or will in the future. Welfare is temporary and time limited (at least in the US). There's been a limit on how long you can stay on it since the Clinton administration.

They aren't the "useless eaters" you want to make them out to be.

Good post, YW. There is such a thing as society, despite what our much-hated and not missed Prime Minister once said. What you describe also broadly applies in Britain. About 60% of the poor in the UK work, and despite the tabloid image of the shiftless, welfare dependant, the real scroungers are the employers who get away with paying starvation wages, and the landlords who charge ridiculous rents (especially in London).
 
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Just did a quick google and this is all I could find:

nic-connor-elected-member-of-council-21_0.jpg


he is the director of campaigns for the 'Bow Group' which 'is chiefly engaged in the policy making process of the UK Conservative Party, which it seeks to contribute to, influence, and hold to scrutiny of the wider conservative movement.' http://www.bowgroup.org

Thhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssss.............
 
Well, quite.

Individuals are expected to strive for a balanced budget, although banks make their debt product so appealing/intrinsic that it's difficult to do. In any event, high personal debt ratios are considered harmful both personally and societally. But some seem to think that governments needn't act with the same circumspection.
 
Individuals are expected to strive for a balanced budget, although banks make their debt product so appealing/intrinsic that it's difficult to do. In any event, high personal debt ratios are considered harmful both personally and societally. But some seem to think that governments needn't act with the same circumspection.

Which individuals? Located where in the social structure? Endowed with what particular self-conceptions and identities? Possessing what forms of social and other capital?
 
The advance of behavioural economics is not fundamentally in conflict with mathematical economics, as some seem to think, though it may well be in conflict with some currently fashionable mathematical economic models. And, while economics presents its own methodological problems, the basic challenges facing researchers are not fundamentally different from those faced by researchers in other fields. As economics develops, it will broaden its repertory of methods and sources of evidence, the science will become stronger, and the charlatans will be exposed.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2013/nov/06/is-economics-a-science-robert-shiller
 
Individuals are expected to strive for a balanced budget, although banks make their debt product so appealing/intrinsic that it's difficult to do. In any event, high personal debt ratios are considered harmful both personally and societally. But some seem to think that governments needn't act with the same circumspection.
That's not really true is it? Individuals are encouraged to take out mortgages that they don't pay back for decades. Debts have two main components - amount and length of time taken out for. You appear to be ignoring the latter.
 
How many words into the post is it where you stop reading?
You stated that individuals are expected to 'balance budgets'. I'd agree with you btw that high personal debt ratios are harmful, and they've been increasing over the last few decades. Now here in the uk we're expected to be in 10s of 1000s of debt by the age of 21 if we want a university degree.

So I say it again - balanced budgets how? Over what time frame? Within the time frame of a whole working life, no? But then your debt is passed over to the next generation - your house is sold when you die, and any outstanding debts you have are squared, and then the younger person who buys the house takes over the mantle of the debt. The 'balance' you seek is already there - in the expression of the debt itself.

Within modern society, being in debt is not only encouraged, but it is seen as virtuous - getting an education, getting a house. So I would dispute this idea you have of 'balanced budgets' - you take on an obligation, take out a debt, and in return that commits you to working and passing a proportion of your future income to servicing the debt.
 
You said that you were against taxation because it is involuntary. But private property is also involuntary e.g., If I enter somebodies private land I could be liable to a civil or criminal penalty. Therefore i suggest that if you are against all involuntary relationships you also have to reject private property.
How is private property in itself involuntary? The term "involuntary relationship" means that a relationship where both parties do not consent is not valid. A person entering private land is committing trespass. One person is not consenting to a persons right of property, so a crime is committed. Thats it.

3) That's because you're a fucking idiot. look at life expectancy in the former Soviet countries before and after the fall of the USSR - I think you'll see a correlation. It's funny how if you define economic 'freedom' in such a way as to automatically exclude the poorest countries (in these property rights will always be unstable - that's how the transition to capitalism works) you get the desired result. I could similarly point to the correlation between comprehensive welfare safetynets, reduced income inequality and mental and physical wellbeing. All it tells us is that if you choose the right proxies to measure you;ll get the results you want.
I don't think countries which have had many years of communism, which are still authoritarian and have poor human rights records (Russia, bulgaria etc.) are a great example. The countries which I think you are referring to re:welfare nets+reduced income equality like Sweden and Norway are still capitalistic countries in most regards.

And lol - an anarcho-capitalist (a contradition in terms if ever there was one) loonsite does not a reliable source make.
Give this a read: http://v.i4031.net/StatistFallacies/WhiningAboutWiki

Also, what are your views on 19th century approaches to poor relief, such as rich people buying orphans via auction?
I think that is completely illegal and immoral. Each person is an individual and thus is not owned or the property of anyone else.


Also, I want to say that I am not an anarcho-capitalist. I'd call myself a voluntaryist, so I think any political system is valid as long as each person in it is able to consent. So if a group of people want to have a socialist community in a country they should be able to do so, as long as no one is forced to join and they all agree to the rules.
 
How is private property in itself involuntary? The term "involuntary relationship" means that a relationship where both parties do not consent is not valid. A person entering private land is committing trespass. One person is not consenting to a persons right of property, so a crime is committed. Thats it.
Who says you own this land? Fuck off, it's mine now, I say.
 
How are high personal debt ratios avoided?
Decent wages, decent social housing provision, education funded for all through govt funds. Any shortfall made up through govt borrowing rather than personal borrowing. The retreat of govt from such things as housing and education provision is a major driver of personal debt.
 
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