littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
How else is it? Where did your ownership come from, and how are you going to enforce it?
*MUST NOT ENGAGE*
what's wrong with economics
- Thread starter DotCommunist
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*MUST NOT ENGAGE*
7000Miles
New Member
No, it doesn't exist. It is a voluntary agreement between two parties. An agreement is made to exchange labor for something, usually money or a "wage", so then it cannot possibly be slavery because slavery is involuntary servitude.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Implying that I at least had it at one point - more than can be said for you.
You had grammatical coherence only. As in it was obvious what laughable nonsense and fallacies you were trying to express.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Avoidance of debt, in other words.
That's up there with those people who try to argue the Nazis were left-wing cos, you know National Socialism...
There are indeed many parallels between Fascism and Communism. Their quarrel was so vicious because it was a case of sibling rivalry.
It is quite interesting how history is only now beginning to reveal this, after 10 decades of seeing them as absolutely opposed to each other.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
A recitation of the obvious: full marks to you.
I thought that, given how often you treat the rest of the board to such recitations, I'd return the favour.
These people seriously try to delude themselves that they aren't right-wing?
The more sensible among them note, quite rightly, that the terms "right-wing" and "left-wing" are obsolete today.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Will probably regret even attempting to engage, but just bolding in an honest attempt to help you here.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Alternative ways of taking out the debt. Holding it at a collective rather than an individual level.
A reversal of fortunes, in fact - instead of individuals taking out debts with institutions, individuals lend to institutions in the form of savings bonds. Those institutions then provide things for those who need them.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
You mean, after ten decades of the superficial popular opinion seeing them as absolutely opposed to each other.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
All the more reason to want them then.
And, given how deep in the corporate world's pockets our political structures are, all the more reason we won't get them, regardless of how much we want them.
Wage-labor is also involuntary, because there is no other way of making a living.
The Greeks considered wage-laborers to be lower than slaves.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
People who are paid decent wages have less necessity to incur debt in order to obtain the basics of life.
Abolition of debt more like.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
I thought that, given how often you treat the rest of the board to such recitations, I'd return the favour.
If I take a header off a bridge, would you do it too?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Absolutely - and the most socially damaging forms of debt - short-term, high-interest debts taken out by people who need the money for necessities - could and should be eliminated entirely by an equitable society.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
No, I think it was more than that.
I find that one of the advantages of being middle-aged is that I can actually remember a time before such major shifts in opinion occurred. I can remember very well how Fascism and Communism once seemed to be opposites, because I used to see them that way myself. And of course it is true that there are important differences between them.
With the benefit of sufficient hindsight however, we can see that those differences were superficial in comparison to the more fundamental points they share in common, and which differentiate them from other political ideologies.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
In other words: people who are paid a decent wage find it easier to balance their budgets.
Just cancel it ffs.
7000Miles
New Member
No it isn't. You are not forced to work, therefore it in not involuntary. You have many choices in life, starve, start a business, work for someone else, be self-employed, hunt for food, beg etc. The business owner is simply giving you one more. The business owner is actually giving you an extra option
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
The shift came for me when I began reading more deeply into the topic, and came to realize that the explication of the basic tenets of national socialism [and its genesis in the German Workers Party] has always been there.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Sure. The debt crisis could be solved tomorrow by cancelling the debts. We would need alternative means of generating money, though. Again, I'm all ears to suggested alternatives.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Bet they're all wearing "I am John Galt" tees under their pseudo-combatwear.
7000Miles
New Member
I know what you are trying to say, but no. Private property is a right, and a person attempting to destroy or trespass is committing a crime. It is not an involuntary contract as such, because one person is not respecting the rights of another. A right is different than a contract two people agree to. Saying "I don't recognise private property, so it doesn't exist and I can do X and Y to another person's property" is ridiculous.Will probably regret even attempting to engage, but just bolding in an honest attempt to help you here.
For the vast majority of people in a capitalist system, the only choice is to work for a wage or starve. That isn't a choice.
It's neither a universal nor a natural right. On what basis do you claim it as such?
7000Miles
New Member
You either don't understand my points or are trying to rile me up. You are not forced in any shape or form to work. You are simply given options and working for a wage is one of them. You have a choice.
We do not need money.
How do I know?
Because we do not have money. Money does not exist. If you think it does, show me some.
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