7000Miles
New Member
The fact that they were on the land before means nothing. Simply being present somewhere in the past doesn't mean you own it. You are missing my point.
what's wrong with economics
- Thread starter DotCommunist
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8ball
Decolonise colons!
Well, you have to accept the starting axioms, but that's the whole problem with the model.
By that definition, slaves also had a choice. The same choice in fact: work or suffer and die.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It is a means of quantifying and regulating obligations in exchanges. It's not so different from me writing you an iou for the eggs you gave me. That iou exists and it is either honoured or it isn't.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
The scrap of paper on which you scribble some words exists.
The financial value that paper allegedly contains does not exist.
If you think it does, show it to me.
[ETA: I have to go in a minute, so I'll skip to the end of the lesson. All the arguments you're going to give me for the existence of money presuppose private property. And thus we see that money is a fetishistic illusion conjured up in order to rationalize private property.]
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And guns.Yeah - you need a fence, dammit!
Ah but then you need workers to make the guns. And miners to get hold of the metal ore. And lorry drivers to transport things around. And, well a whole industrial system, with workers who need housing and feeding, so you need some agricultural system to do that. And... And... And...
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Imperialist bullshit. The law in Canada was recently clarified by the Supreme Court.
http://m.gowlings.com/KnowledgeCentre/article.asp?pubID=3399
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
It's precisely this need/desire for such an anti-social context (a space where not only rights but individuals are free floating) that makes 7000miles at heart a people hater. One thing we can say about people is that we are connected and dependent; rather than trying to escape this necessary state of affairs 7000 would do much better to embrace it.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Yuwipi Woman
Whack-A-Mole Queen
You're arguing against your own case here. Shoving someone else off who's occupying land so you can own it is exactly what you're saying no one is entitled to do to you.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
He can't, because in a very similar manner this forum does not exist.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The value simply exists in the agreement between the two parties. And if you're passing on that iou to another, in the confidence in the agreement between the parties that others have. Lose that agreement or confidence in the agreement and you lose the value of the scribble. But scribbles on pieces of paper - or imprints on clay tablets - have had effective meaning for thousands of years within city-based complex societies.
Indeed this was precisely the ethical rationalization of slavery.
The slave enslaved himself by allowing himself to be enslaved. Escape by suicide was always an option, and by electing not to take that option, the enslaved person revealed himself to be a natural slave, and thus justified his own enslavement.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's not an illusion. It's an agreed idea, that's all. You make a good point about property. And the origins of money are in societies in which inequality had emerged.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
How long do you have to be off the land for before I can move in and claim it?
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Didn't your mate Hegel say something along these lines? Utterly absurd nonsense.
7000Miles
New Member
I'm not going to bother addressing this again. Read my previous posts, slavery is involuntary servitude which working for a wage is not.
I am not a people hater at all. You seem to believe that because I am against one system that I must hate people being co-operative or something.
Like I said before, people are missing my points. What I was trying to say was that simply because someone at one point in the past was on land that doesn't mean its theirs for good. If they built a house and lived there consistently, or owned the deeds etc. its their land. If they built it in 1000 BC and left it a year later without writing any kind of legal or similar document whats the issue with someone taking it over in 2014? They are no longer occupying it, are long dead, and don't have the rights to it any longer.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
you're American, yes? Do you know anything about the history of your country?
But your posts are crammed full of nonsense - a legal document? What of a kind their society didn't have, that kind of thing? That's as mad as the Christian invaders from Europe expecting people to know about Jesus when they arrived. But why has God not given you this good news?
So coercion is voluntary?
7000Miles
New Member
No. My roots are in the U.K but I live in Ireland.
7000Miles
New Member
What?
Which word didn't you understand?
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
It's not your opposition to a system (not that anybody on this thread has proposed a system) that makes you a people hater; it's your placing of an imagined law above and before the needs of people that demonstrates your deep held misanthropy.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
p.s. any luck with the 'money trick' yet?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Ah, you're one of our nutters.
7000Miles
New Member
I don't know how you managed to get "coercion is voluntary" out of my post. Can you explain?
Working for a multinational that has sited itself in Dublin because of their shamefully low corporate tax rate?
Idris2002
canadian girlfriend
First of all - you're a cunt.
Second of all - you obviously know nothing of precolumbian native cultures, which did not wander hither and yon across the American continents, but in general occupied specific territories, within which they may have had an itinerant or peripatetic existence, but with which the interacted in ways that satisfy the 'original appropriation' test. Or would satisfy it, if it wasn't a load of shit.
7000Miles
New Member
Maybe from my point of view this "imagined law" as you describe it is good for the people? Better than a socialist or similar law? Its all a matter of perspective. And give me a chance to read this document please.
You implied that working not as a slave was voluntary. And yet working is coerced by making the consequences be akin to those a slave suffered if the slave refused to work.
Anyway, the implication is that the coercion is voluntary. Which seems like nonsense to me, but there you go.
It's not really though, is it? It makes perfect rational sense. Anyone who is not a natural slave would die rather than be enslaved. As you say, Hegel expanded on this ancient argument, under the inspiration of the successful slave revolt in Haiti, which established that Africans were not natural slaves.
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