What's the Spartacist League up to these days?

[Carl Steele]

It's got all the hallmarks of an amazing podcast / Netflix documentary.

I think it could work as a docudrama - everybody together talking about the past (like The Four Yorkshiremen) mixed with extended flashbacks to what actually happened. Maybe start off with three people and have a drip drip of new people coming in, constantly revising the story.

ETA Each new character to enter the room comes from the most recent flashback.

 

[Dom Traynor]

I think it could work as a docudrama - everybody together talking about the past (like The Four Yorkshiremen) mixed with extended flashbacks to what actually happened. Maybe start off with three people and have a drip drip of new people coming in, constantly revising the story.

ETA Each new character to enter the room comes from the most recent flashback.

You could see the same event from different perspectives

 

[JimW]

You could see the same event from different perspectives

Bolshomon.

 

[Idris2002]

Bolshomon.

Gotta catch 'em all.

 

[Idris2002]

I bet Idris2002 would not, eleven years ago, have put money on this thread turning into the darkest ever episode of Surprise Surprise.

 

[nogojones]

I think it could work as a docudrama - everybody together talking about the past (like The Four Yorkshiremen) mixed with extended flashbacks to what actually happened. Maybe start off with three people and have a drip drip of new people coming in, constantly revising the story.

ETA Each new character to enter the room comes from the most recent flashback.

I must say, it is all a bit Tiger King, but with more tracts about the historic necessity of 1917 and the vanguard party and less big cats.

 

[tim]

Waiting for Judith.

 

[hitmouse]

 

[Carl Steele]

Waiting for Judith.

Great minds and all that, and she'd be more interesting than hubby. Bill is probably more likely though.

 

[Dom Traynor]

Great minds and all that, and she'd be more interesting than hubby. Bill is probably more likely though.

I suspect Bill Logan is too busy being a holistic counsellor of vulnerable people.

 

[belboid]

I suspect Bill Logan is too busy being a holistic counsellor of vulnerable people.

which, following the ongoing discussion, really does sound like Groomer in Chief.

 

[Carl Steele]

I suspect Bill Logan is too busy being a holistic counsellor of vulnerable people.

Apparently he does something called narrative counselling which focuses on "the stories we tell about ourselves". Stories such as "I am a great revolutionary leader". You really couldn't make this stuff up.

 

[Kevin Oakleigh]

Is this documented somewhere? Is there some testimony? Can you give some names, only first names, of those who underwent sterilisation or vasectomies.

No, no names as this was a personal matter and they would want their privacy just as I want mine.
The sterilisation subsidy, if needed, concerned the dues schedule so it was common knowledge to everyone in the organisation and while struck out of print, under American advice, it was still applicable certainly until the Logans were transferred out to London. How do I know this? Because I was there. Who saw fit to undergo sterilization were, as I wrote, a few who had followed Vicky, in one way or another, to the solution of Fostering her baby which is not immediate adoption. A personal choice, (sterilisation) and for my then knowledge a choice that no-one in the “rank and file” was actively interested in making. Who put “theirs” under the surgeons scalpel, or thought to do so as in my case, were acting from the experience of Vickey’s situation. As Doug H wrote: “having children was definitely a serious obstacle to revolutionary activity, and we all knew that,” or Robertson's reported lament “Damn babies, damn babies” or as Logan who arrived at the conclusion, but with other words, “cut off their attributes and sew up the other”. We knew that capitalism would not just collapse but it seemed we were on an “End days” road, the necessary party would be created by “professional revolutionaries” and their work in a period which seemed to offer historic possibilities for “our chance”. Logan thought himself a predestinato. He once said in a local meeting, during a confrontation, that he must be the youngest leader ever (then about 26 years old) of a healthy revolutionary party. The SLANZ was a pressure cooker, and after Logan’s expulsion, when I was no longer a member there, it exploded which reportedly left visiting comrades stunned at the rage and bitterness revealed. I’m sure that among some the line between abusers and abused was quite blurred and those that fell out remained severely scarred.

 

[Kevin Oakleigh]

I knew a woman very well who was in the SL/ANZ in the Logan years and she never mentioned this.

I was a member of the SLB for a couple of years in the late 70’s and part of 1980 and don’t remember any Australian woman permanently stationed there although I have a recollection of M.H. who was probably just passing by on mission.

 

[Kevin Oakleigh]

How many members did the SL/ANZ have in 1973?

Maybe the SLANZ had around 20 members in the mid 1970’s but functioned as if it had double that.

I

 

[Carl Steele]

I was a member of the SLB for a couple of years in the late 70’s and part of 1980 and don’t remember any Australian woman permanently stationed there although I have a recollection of M.H. who was probably just passing by on mission.

Well, this means you would have been in England when Bill Logan and Adaire Hannah were the leadership. You would have witnessed Bill and Adaire's removal. You would also have been there at the time of the Logan trial. I'd be interested in hearing your recollections.

I'm still surprised that the sterilisations are not mentioned anywhere given the obsessive documentation of the Logan period which runs to several hundred pages of letters, transcripts of meetings etc. As you should know the Sparts tape-recorded every meeting. Seems like this would have been useful ammunition for Robertson since it would have been a genuine aberration.

MH by the way was a member of the SL/B central committee for a number of years.

 

[Carl Steele]

The SLANZ was a pressure cooker, and after Logan’s expulsion, when I was no longer a member there, it exploded which reportedly left visiting comrades stunned at the rage and bitterness revealed. I’m sure that among some the line between abusers and abused was quite blurred and those that fell out remained severely scarred.

I just noticed this - the explosion you are talking about was at an SL/ANZ summer camp in January 1979 which happened prior to Logan's expulsion not after. The Logan trial and expulsion followed in August1979.

The SL/ANZ summer camp laid the basis for the expulsion of Logan, not sure how you get these the wrong way round.

 

[Carl Steele]

No, no names as this was a personal matter ahe nd they would want their privacy just as I want mine.
The sterilisation subsidy, if needed, concerned the dues schedule so it was common knowledge to everyone in the organisation and while struck out of print, under American advice, it was still applicable certainly until the Logans were transferred out to London. How do I know this? Because I was there. Who saw fit to undergo sterilization were, as I wrote, a few who had followed Vicky, in one way or another, to the solution of Fostering her baby which is not immediate adoption. A personal choice, (sterilisation) and for my then knowledge a choice that no-one in the “rank and file” was actively interested in making. Who put “theirs” under the surgeons scalpel, or thought to do so as in my case, were acting from the experience of Vickey’s situation. As Doug H wrote: “having children was definitely a serious obstacle to revolutionary activity, and we all knew that,” or Robertson's reported lament “Damn babies, damn babies” or as Logan who arrived at the conclusion, but with other words, “cut off their attributes and sew up the other”. We knew that capitalism would not just collapse but it seemed we were on an “End days” road, the necessary party would be created by “professional revolutionaries” and their work in a period which seemed to offer historic possibilities for “our chance”. Logan thought himself a predestinato. He once said in a local meeting, during a confrontation, that he must be the youngest leader ever (then about 26 years old) of a healthy revolutionary party. The SLANZ was a pressure cooker, and after Logan’s expulsion, when I was no longer a member there, it exploded which reportedly left visiting comrades stunned at the rage and bitterness revealed. I’m sure that among some the line between abusers and abused was quite blurred and those that fell out remained severely scarred.

This guy is a troll. Nothing rings true. A lot of the quotes he uses are out there on the internet. I could reference all the documents but can't be bothered. The MH reference is in a Bolshevik Tendency document but he clearly has no idea who she is. Some of it's just made up. Some of his posts look like they were generated by an AI app with a Google database.

There is a lot of info on the internet about Logan and the Sparts but it's bitty and confusing and this is why he's muddled up the "explosion" in the SL/ANZ and the expulsion of Logan. Nobody who was there would have done this. Without the "explosion" there was no expulsion.

Also, a detail, he keeps talking about the "dues". In the Sparts the money you paid was a Pledge (like the polish).

 

[spring-peeper]

This guy is a troll.

I've been reading the thread with interest, so thank you for all your input.

For clarification sake, who is the troll? Kevin?

(I'm the queen of getting the wrong end of the stick )

 

[Carl Steele]

For clarification sake, who is the troll? Kevin?

Yes, Kevin is a troll. I've thought this since he first appeared.

 

[Idris2002]

I've been reading the thread with interest, so thank you for all your input.

For clarification sake, who is the troll? Kevin?

(I'm the queen of getting the wrong end of the stick )

Genuine question, spring - why do you find the thread interesting? There's no way of saying this without sounding snide, but I honestly don't mean it in a snide way.

 

[co-op]

Genuine question, spring - why do you find the thread interesting? There's no way of saying this without sounding snide, but I honestly don't mean it in a snide way.

Isn't it utterly fascinating? It seems self-evident to me

 

[spring-peeper]

Genuine question, spring - why do you find the thread interesting? There's no way of saying this without sounding snide, but I honestly don't mean it in a snide way.

No offense taken.

I'm not sure why I find it interesting.

I never paid it any mind when the thread was first started, but then, I've slowed down a bit since then.

I think I find it interesting because, for me, it is something new and I'm enjoying it.

Really didn't like that neocon thing, though. To me, I found him arrogant and I'm not a big fan of arrogance.

Since he left, I revisited the thread and stayed to learn a bit.

 

[kebabking]

Genuine question, spring - why do you find the thread interesting? There's no way of saying this without sounding snide, but I honestly don't mean it in a snide way.

Mate, it's an anthropological research trip into the weirdest society ever.

Or, it's like an episode of Radio 4's The Reunion about some religious loons living in a Crack Den, except this one is much more fun because they can't stand each other, and at least one of them is still on the pipe.

A lot of it is fucking dark, perhaps a little like the Banality of Evil, you're reading it and then your eyes pop out on stalks with a you did fucking what?....

 

[Carl Steele]

Mate, it's an anthropological research trip into the weirdest society ever.

Or, it's like an episode of Radio 4's The Reunion about some religious loons living in a Crack Den, except this one is much more fun because they can't stand each other, and at least one of them is still on the pipe.

A lot of it is fucking dark, perhaps a little like the Banality of Evil, you're reading it and then your eyes pop out on stalks with a you did fucking what?....

The way some people are still lost in the dark is what's most interesting to me. The politics are irrelevant, as you imply you could swap in some apocalyptic religious dogma and nothing would change.

 

[kebabking]

The way some people are still lost in the dark is what's most interesting to me. The politics are irrelevant, as you imply you could swap in some apocalyptic religious dogma and nothing would change.

Absolutely - the political stuff is less interesting than the human stuff, which could be relatable to any cult, weird religious group, or mad, oppressive family.

I'd be interested in reading about attitudes to the Soviet Union/other socialist-communist states - where they considered saviours/partners, irrelevant, or just as bad as anyone else, did that change according to what they were doing, or what SL were thinking that week?

 

[Carl Steele]

I'd be interested in reading about attitudes to the Soviet Union/other socialist-communist states

The "defence" of the Soviet Union and all other workers states (their definition) was an article of faith. They still think North Korea is a more historically advanced form of society than western Europe. Of course they didn't actually do anything to defend the Soviet Union, they just wrote newspaper articles with lots of declarative slogans. I think they once talked about sending an international brigade to Afghanistan but this was a fantasy which came to nothing.

 

[hitmouse]

but this was a fantasy

I watched the new Adam Curtis the other month and now I can't read that phrase without hearing it in his voice.

 

[Idris2002]

Absolutely - the political stuff is less interesting than the human stuff, which could be relatable to any cult, weird religious group, or mad, oppressive family.

I'd be interested in reading about attitudes to the Soviet Union/other socialist-communist states - where they considered saviours/partners, irrelevant, or just as bad as anyone else, did that change according to what they were doing, or what SL were thinking that week?

Yes, but spring-peeper is an actual normal person (unlike most U75ers). I suppose normies have to take a "walk on the wild side" every now and then.

The kind of shrill, demented, denunciation of enemies that the Sparts specialised in is something you can get for free on the internet these days, you don't need to join a cult for it.

One thing about the older stuff the Sparts put out though, is that often it was on the money. I found one of their papers on the internet where they talked about the last days of Smith's Rhodesia - the settlers who had been detailed to run the sanctions evading businesses had developed sticky fingers and put their hands in the till. I looked this one up on the New York Times archive and it checked out.

 

[co-op]

Mate, it's an anthropological research trip into the weirdest society ever.

Or, it's like an episode of Radio 4's The Reunion about some religious loons living in a Crack Den, except this one is much more fun because they can't stand each other, and at least one of them is still on the pipe.

A lot of it is fucking dark, perhaps a little like the Banality of Evil, you're reading it and then your eyes pop out on stalks with a you did fucking what?....

Yes a lot of it sounds pretty crazy now but then again U75 reactions to it are interesting too; when posters on here tut tut over how the SL's members "were wasting so much time" (a fairly standard U75 response over the years to non-approved political activity) I find myself thinking, yes and what does the average U75 poster contribute to some grand transformation of society?

And that's not meant to be snide, we all choose a path, it changes over the years, we do what seems best at the time, not under conditions of our own choosing etc. There's something quite defensive about dismissing or ridiculing the SL and its members - the main reason they appear absurd now is that they actually believed that a transformational political revolution from below was possible and they dedicated their lives to that project. Much of their apparent craziness follows quite logically from that belief.

That they appear ridiculous now speaks to how little belief there is left now that any transformation is possible.