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What's the Spartacist League up to these days?

I can just about understand you falling for this/him as an impressionable youngster but...you don't seem to have unfallen for it/him. It's very strange.

From the things Carl Steele has posted (which you don't seem to deny) and some of the things you've posted yourself, he sounds like a despicable and very manipulative person.

Which is why I thought it was strange when you seemed to be trying to provoke an argument with the 'What would Robinson have to say?' thing. I mean who gives two fucks what some unpleasant no mark bloke would have to say? Seriously. 🤷‍♀️

Eta Sorry, meant to say 'political no mark' but hopefully my meaning was clear.
Well, Sue, all I can say, is you had to be there.

Look ... we're all human. We're all the descendants of primates, and pretty nasty ones at that. We're all Sinners.

I try to understand people's motivations, which are always mixed, and try to give them the benefit of the doubt.. I say "try", not "succeed".
Robertson's primary motive, for many years -- beginning in about 1945 and carrying on through McCarthyism -- was to build a revolutionary
party, in order to liberate humanity. This is a misguided project, but the aims are not base.

The whole socialist project is a busted flush, only capable of bring misery to people wherever it is tried. So I'm glad the Spartacists did not succeed.

But there were some very admirable people in it. I can't use that term without alloy for Robertson, especially in light of what he became in his last forty years, but
he had some very good qualities alongside the bad ones -- qualities you would want in anyone, if you wanted to make a social revolution, and which are fairly
rare. (I know nothing about you so I cannot say whether these qualities are something you would appreciate.)
 
And you suffered because of this Doug, didn't you? You fell from grace. Perhaps you could tell us what happened.
I supported the Logans, and my repudiation of my support was (correctly) not seen as really genuine.

After Judith and I left, I did some reading. At the time, someone had just published an academic study
of cults. And while, as you know, I don't think that word applies to the SL, there were interesting parallels
between its internal life, and the internal life of the various religious and quasi-religious groups studied
by the author.

Factional struggle in small groups is nothing new. I'll bet that essentially the same tales could be told by
former members of the CP, the IS, the SWP, and a hundred other groups.
 
So you repudiated your support for the Logans. Why was this not seen as genuine and what did Robertson do to you?
It was probably seen as not genuine because, subconsciously, it wasn't.

Here's an analogy, going from the farcical to the tragic: The Bolshevik Party began as a genuine revolutionary organization. After the last convuslive twith of the failed German revolution -- an
attempted insurrection n Hamburg, against the Communist Party's wishes, it was clear to the politicized people in the USSR that their country would be isolated for an indefinite, but not short, period. This ws the signal for the consolidation of a conservative, cautious bueaucracy in that country, led by Stalin. (Ex-Spartacists reading this will know all about it.)

But there were still Bolsheviks who adhered to the original outlook of the Party: hold on, and encourage revolution in Europe. They became known as the Left Opposition. However, when world capitalism underwent a profound crisis in 1929, Stalin mechanically ordered the Comintern into a 'Left turn' -- the so-called Third Period.

The Left Opposition hadn't got anywhere, Stalin seemed to be projecting a revolutionary course ... so many Left Opposition supporters 'capitulated' and became supporters of the regime -- which they no doubt saw as deeply flawed, but still revolutionary, contra to the predictions of the Left Opposition that the bureaucracy would restore capitalism. (And this belief was no doubt consolidated when
Stalin made the internal turn towards forced industrialization, 'building socialism'. )

Were their conversions 'sincere'? Yes and no. If you're a genuine revolutionary, you put the welfare of the revolution, and of the Party that will lead it, ahead of your own personal feelings.

Anyway, all these people ended up being shot in the great Purge that came a few years later. Stalin didn't trust them, and he was right not to do so.

In my own case, after the nightmare of the Logan trial -- the worst period of my life -- I was only a half-hearted member. Perhaps that was obvious. I was coming to the conclusion that there were only two things that would justify continued membership of the SL: If it had a healthy internal life, one could remain a member, waiting for the objective circumstances to change. Or, if it had an unhealthy internal life, but still had the capacity to intervene in an outside world that presented a chance for the revolutionary forces to grow, that would justify remaining.

But neither was true. I recall an incident that consolidated my view that the SL was beyond hope: the IMG had been vociferous supporters of the mullah's seizure of power in Iran. (One of their leaders travelled there during the early period of mullah rule, and when he retunred and gave public lectures about how wonderful things were, he proudly showed his 'Khomeini Card', some sort of pro-regime token that its supporters had.)

Then came the inevitable repression, with Iranian Trotskyists being imprisoned and threatened with with execution. The SL mounted a campaign of sorts in their defense ... but in its own sectarian way.
Anyway, we were outside an IMG meeting of some sort, possibly for IMG members only, handing out leaflelts about the situation in Iran. Everyone going into the meeting ignored us .. except for one fellow. He took a leaflet, and stopped to argue with us ... genially.

Paydirt! Three or four of us clustered around him .And then, after a minute or two, he said something -- I forget what, exactly -- and one of our members -- an ex-soldier -- suddenly and without warning screamed in his ear.

He just shook his head, broke off the conversation, and went into the meeting. I knew then that we were doomed. We had had a chance to present our case on Iran to someone who was willing to listen and discuss ... and we blew it.

Now, I didn't make a conscious decision to resign. All this was cumulative. Quantity had not yet turned into quality. It took another incident ... I think someone has mentioned it already ... where I was censured for arguing with a kid who said, I think just to wind me up, "I support the National Front myself."

There is a passage in the excellent biography of Margaret Thatcher, by Claire Berlinsky, in which she interviews a group of former coal miners: they all express the leftist sentiments you would expect. And then one of them says, something to the effect that he has found an organization which really cares about the working class ... the National Front. It's a startlement, but -- as I think someone in a previous post pointed out -- this is not uncommon in the working class, even among people who had supported Leftist parties all their lives -- I think it's quite common in France.

If you can't argue with such people, it shows you are really just a posturer, concerned about your own virtue.

However, I don't take as the sole measure of anything, how it affects me., or at least I try not to.

Most of the people in the SL were good people, concerned about the world, willing to sacrifice a lot in the pursuit of their ideals. Many of their critics seem to be just bruised egos, people who would not have made it in any serious revolutionary group.

What happened to the SL was mainly the result of outside forces -- the lack of any realistic prospect for revolution.

I'm glad there was no realistic prospect for revolution, but I'm sorry to see that so many good people ended up wasting part of their life ... and for some of them, including several I recruited, their whole life.

For those who still within the group, I hope they get some monetary compensation when the organization's physical assets are liquidated.
 
There is something about this one that would make a fascinating case study, having managed to dump all the official large-scale beliefs of the SL and Trotskyism, and yet still somehow convinced that whatever virtues his shit cult and its members had were somehow unique and everyone else on the left are just unserious bruised egos. I suppose he's like a one-man version of the RCP/Spiked set?
 
Saw three Sparts at the Kill the Bill demo at Lincolns Inn Fields handing out their Programme which seems to be last thing they have in print and that's been out for awhile. Every shade of Bolshevik there, including the almost extinct International Bolshevik Tendency and Workers Power.
 
Your contributions have transported me back into the late 80s early 90s Marxist-Leninist crap fest that not only offered the working class nothing, but also wasted a lot of good people's valuable time. Catch onto your self, help yourself, and instead of jumping from ideology/ideologue to ideology/ideologue, have a look a look at the day to day world you live in, and the people you rely on (and take some care and consideration for them).

Cheers - Louis MacNeice
 
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Wow I didnt know Workers Power were still going!
Yes, unfortunately. They went deeply into Labour Party under Corbynism and operated under cover of name Red Flag ( nothing to do with Posadist paper) For awhile they produced a paper Red Flag printed on pink paper. When I asked them which horses to back they didn't get it, and delivered a stern sermon on the evils of betting. See here: Workers Power
 
Yes, unfortunately. They went deeply into Labour Party under Corbynism and operated under cover of name Red Flag ( nothing to do with Posadist paper) For awhile they produced a paper Red Flag printed on pink paper. When I asked them which horses to back they didn't get it, and delivered a stern sermon on the evils of betting. See here: Workers Power
Yeah, I thought they'd officially changed their name/decided to start pretending to just be a paper instead of a group. But I suppose being a Starmer-orientated Red Flag probably offers slim pickings nowadays.
eta: I suppose it makes quite a funny combination with the recent meme. When they claim to be the Fifth International 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩 etc.
 
Actually I 've known one of them for decades. When I was at Edgware General Hospital in the 1970s, he was a shop steward there ( not in my department, he was a porter, I was a Central Sterile Supplies Department assistant and I was also a shop steward). He was in IS then, but talked to me about forthcoming split which led to Workers Power. He was there this Saturday. A nice guy, apart from being a Trot.
 
Saw three Sparts at the Kill the Bill demo at Lincolns Inn Fields handing out their Programme which seems to be last thing they have in print and that's been out for awhile. Every shade of Bolshevik there, including the almost extinct International Bolshevik Tendency and Workers Power.

Was it the International Bolshevik Tendency or the Bolshevik Tendency? If in doubt you ask them if they think Russia is imperialist. If they answer "yes" they are IBT. "No" means they are BT. "Don't know" means they should book themselves into a ComCrit session asap.
 
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Having looked it up on wikipedia, turns out that "are Workers' Power still going?" is one of those trick questions where "nah, they wound themselves up a few years ago" and "yes" are both right answers, apparently they officially dissolved themselves in 2015 and then un-dissolved themselves last summer:

Dissolution​

In September 2015 Workers Power dissolved, calling for all socialists to join the Labour Party. Former members formed the Red Flag Platform, describing itself as "a revolutionary socialist initiative campaigning in the Labour Party". It published the first issue of its newspaper, Red Flag, in November 2015.

Relaunch​

In August 2021, Workers Power was relaunched...
 
Having looked it up on wikipedia, turns out that "are Workers' Power still going?" is one of those trick questions where "nah, they wound themselves up a few years ago" and "yes" are both right answers, apparently they officially dissolved themselves in 2015 and then un-dissolved themselves last summer:
It's almost as if the dissolution were a complete fabrication so they could become deep entryists! The only thing they have ever been deep about
 
homer-simpson-homer.gif

Did they ever get officially prescribed, or were they stuck in the even more embarassing situation of "groups too insignificant to bother banning"?
 
IBT, I believe. They had a leaflet with'1917' on it.

Both the IBT and BT claim 1917 as their own. It's the most Pythonesque split in the history of Trotskyism. For those who may not know, and I feel slightly ashamed that I do know, but my excuse is old personal connections and therefore interest, the IBT is the property of Bill Logan and the BT belongs to Tom Riley, they fell out a few years ago ostensibly over whether or not Russia is imperialist.
 
Having a child definitely cuts across being able to be active as a professional revolutionary.
There is an untold corollary to the Vicky's baby drama in the SLANZ. Around the time baby was placed with a foster family a clause was written into the dues guidelines to facilitate those who wanted sterilisation\ vasectomies. This was later removed as not appropriate in writing but remained as an unwritten norm.
Several of those directly involved in Vicky’s story underwent sterilisation. He who writes had a first visit at a family planning clinic and told to return in some months, considering my young age, if still convinced to carry on with this endeavour. Happily I didn’t and today I’m a grandfather while some others, to ensure their functioning as dedicated cadre or “upper level” full time professional revolutionaries sacrificed this possibility, such were the times.
 
It was probably seen as not genuine because, subconsciously, it wasn't.

Here's an analogy, going from the farcical to the tragic: The Bolshevik Party began as a genuine revolutionary organization. After the last convuslive twith of the failed German revolution -- an
attempted insurrection n Hamburg, against the Communist Party's wishes, it was clear to the politicized people in the USSR that their country would be isolated for an indefinite, but not short, period. This ws the signal for the consolidation of a conservative, cautious bueaucracy in that country, led by Stalin. (Ex-Spartacists reading this will know all about it.)

But there were still Bolsheviks who adhered to the original outlook of the Party: hold on, and encourage revolution in Europe. They became known as the Left Opposition. However, when world capitalism underwent a profound crisis in 1929, Stalin mechanically ordered the Comintern into a 'Left turn' -- the so-called Third Period.

The Left Opposition hadn't got anywhere, Stalin seemed to be projecting a revolutionary course ... so many Left Opposition supporters 'capitulated' and became supporters of the regime -- which they no doubt saw as deeply flawed, but still revolutionary, contra to the predictions of the Left Opposition that the bureaucracy would restore capitalism. (And this belief was no doubt consolidated when
Stalin made the internal turn towards forced industrialization, 'building socialism'. )

Were their conversions 'sincere'? Yes and no. If you're a genuine revolutionary, you put the welfare of the revolution, and of the Party that will lead it, ahead of your own personal feelings.

Anyway, all these people ended up being shot in the great Purge that came a few years later. Stalin didn't trust them, and he was right not to do so.

In my own case, after the nightmare of the Logan trial -- the worst period of my life -- I was only a half-hearted member. Perhaps that was obvious. I was coming to the conclusion that there were only two things that would justify continued membership of the SL: If it had a healthy internal life, one could remain a member, waiting for the objective circumstances to change. Or, if it had an unhealthy internal life, but still had the capacity to intervene in an outside world that presented a chance for the revolutionary forces to grow, that would justify remaining.

But neither was true. I recall an incident that consolidated my view that the SL was beyond hope: the IMG had been vociferous supporters of the mullah's seizure of power in Iran. (One of their leaders travelled there during the early period of mullah rule, and when he retunred and gave public lectures about how wonderful things were, he proudly showed his 'Khomeini Card', some sort of pro-regime token that its supporters had.)

Then came the inevitable repression, with Iranian Trotskyists being imprisoned and threatened with with execution. The SL mounted a campaign of sorts in their defense ... but in its own sectarian way.
Anyway, we were outside an IMG meeting of some sort, possibly for IMG members only, handing out leaflelts about the situation in Iran. Everyone going into the meeting ignored us .. except for one fellow. He took a leaflet, and stopped to argue with us ... genially.

Paydirt! Three or four of us clustered around him .And then, after a minute or two, he said something -- I forget what, exactly -- and one of our members -- an ex-soldier -- suddenly and without warning screamed in his ear.

He just shook his head, broke off the conversation, and went into the meeting. I knew then that we were doomed. We had had a chance to present our case on Iran to someone who was willing to listen and discuss ... and we blew it.

Now, I didn't make a conscious decision to resign. All this was cumulative. Quantity had not yet turned into quality. It took another incident ... I think someone has mentioned it already ... where I was censured for arguing with a kid who said, I think just to wind me up, "I support the National Front myself."

There is a passage in the excellent biography of Margaret Thatcher, by Claire Berlinsky, in which she interviews a group of former coal miners: they all express the leftist sentiments you would expect. And then one of them says, something to the effect that he has found an organization which really cares about the working class ... the National Front. It's a startlement, but -- as I think someone in a previous post pointed out -- this is not uncommon in the working class, even among people who had supported Leftist parties all their lives -- I think it's quite common in France.

If you can't argue with such people, it shows you are really just a posturer, concerned about your own virtue.

However, I don't take as the sole measure of anything, how it affects me., or at least I try not to.

Most of the people in the SL were good people, concerned about the world, willing to sacrifice a lot in the pursuit of their ideals. Many of their critics seem to be just bruised egos, people who would not have made it in any serious revolutionary group.

What happened to the SL was mainly the result of outside forces -- the lack of any realistic prospect for revolution.

I'm glad there was no realistic prospect for revolution, but I'm sorry to see that so many good people ended up wasting part of their life ... and for some of them, including several I recruited, their whole life.

For those who still within the group, I hope they get some monetary compensation when the organization's physical assets are liquidated.
It’s nice reading you again; I presume you are Doug, is that right? I am very sorry to hear that you have become a neocon although Judith told me as much. We should talk by email sometime; I don’t like the circus environment here. Judith has my details including my FB and Messenger details. Victor
 
here is an untold corollary to the Vicky's baby drama in the SLANZ. Around the time baby was placed with a foster family a clause was written into the dues guidelines to facilitate those who wanted sterilisation\ vasectomies. This was later removed as not appropriate in writing but remained as an unwritten norm.
Several of those directly involved in Vicky’s story underwent sterilisation. He who writes had a first visit at a family planning clinic and told to return in some months, considering my young age, if still convinced to carry on with this endeavour. Happily I didn’t and today I’m a grandfather while some others, to ensure their functioning as dedicated cadre or “upper level” full time professional revolutionaries sacrificed this possibility, such were the times.

Is this documented somewhere? Is there some testimony? Can you give some names, only first names, of those who underwent sterilisation or vasectomies. I knew a woman very well who was in the SL/ANZ in the Logan years and she never mentioned this.

How many members did the SL/ANZ have in 1973?
 
I bet Idris2002 would not, eleven years ago, have put money on this thread turning into the darkest ever episode of Surprise Surprise.
Should we ask editor to officially get the name of the site changed to spartsreunited.com, or at least get a redirect?
It's also a bit like the Iris Murdoch novel, "The Sea, The Sea", all the people you're trying to escape from keep turning up.
What a queer gamble our existence is. We decide to do A instead of B and then the two roads diverge utterly and may lead in the end to heaven and to hell. Only later ones sees how much and how awfully the fates differ. Yet what were the reasons for the choice? They may have been forgotten. Did one know what one was choosing? Certainly not. There are such chasms of might-have-beens in any human life.

Great book that, I read it not that long before the start of the pandemic, and if it hadn't been for having read it fairly recently I think I would've revisited it during lockdown. A good book for a period of retreat from the world.
 
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