What stupid shit has Trump done today?

[CrabbedOne]

Say your out an about and you are approached by a lady of the night. As it is she who is soliciting. You are free to go on your way.

On the other hand if you were the one doing the approaching (and she turns out be an undercover cop) it is likely to be you who ends up being sanctioned.

I think you are confusing the limits of street level law enforcement entrapment in the US with what may be High Crimes & Misdemeanors. Based on what has been disclosed so far a good lawyer could probably avoid Don Jr being convicted of an actual crime but what we have here is an obvious willingness in the core of the Trump Team to collude with possible Russian state actors against US interests. We have firm evidence of intent and also of covering that up. At this level there's really no free pass for being easily played or being a twerp who fails to cover arse by an early frank disclosure. An experienced set of US political actors perhaps would also be up to no good but would have behaved far more defensively.

 

[teqniq]

 

[Joe Reilly]

I think you are confusing the limits of street level law enforcement entrapment in the US with what may be High Crimes & Misdemeanors. Based on what has been disclosed so far a good lawyer could probably avoid Don Jr being convicted of an actual crime but what we have here is an obvious willingness in the core of the Trump Team to collude with possible Russian state actors against US interests.

So now the Clinton campaign is the equivalent of "US interests"? But why then when Trump was traduced in 'Pissgate' believed to have been recorded by Russian state actors and delivered by someone possibly associated with another foreign state actor did the press or Democrats not show such scruples? Trump was President elect. Where was the concern about "US interests" then?

 

[CRI]

kinky?

 

[RD2003]

So, the gist of all this seems to be that if only Trump could be impeached/got rid of, everything would be all right again (like it was under Obama).

As for the Russians, they really don't play the game (or do they?)

 

[CRI]

So now the Clinton campaign is the equivalent of "US interests"? But why then when Trump was traduced in 'Pissgate' believed to have been recorded by Russian state actors and delivered by someone possibly associated with another foreign state actor did the press or Democrats not show such scruples? Trump was President elect. Where was the concern about "US interests" then?

You do seem to be deliberately misunderstanding what people are saying here.

I would suggest that it is in "US Interests" to have a fair election process, without intervention from anyone acting on behalf of another country - particularly one that is under sanction. That is NOT the same as equating US Interests to either the Clinton or the Trump campaign.

"Pissgate" emerged AFTER the elections were over, so too late to have any impact on the election, unless you believe in time travel.

But know what? I also would consider it in "US Interests" to investigate if there is evidence that the US President is or could be being blackmailed into acting against "US Interests."

Is it really that hard to understand?

 

[RD2003]

You do seem to be deliberately misunderstanding what people are saying here.

I would suggest that it is in "US Interests" to have a fair election process, without intervention from anyone acting on behalf of another country - particularly one that is under sanction. That is NOT the same as equating US Interests to either the Clinton or the Trump campaign.

"Pissgate" emerged AFTER the elections were over, so too late to have any impact on the election, unless you believe in time travel.

But know what? I also would consider it in "US Interests" to investigate if there is evidence that the US President is or could be being blackmailed into acting against "US Interests."

Is it really that hard to understand?

is it really that hard to understand that, for example, the Ukrainians should have a free election process 'without intervention by anyone acting on behalf of another country'?

Are you naive or simply disingenuous?

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

So, the gist of all this seems to be that if only Trump could be impeached/got rid of, everything would be all right again (like it was under Obama).

There's a certain expectation that one of the great powers has, I dunno, a certain level of basic competence at the top. I mean, not benevolence or wisdom or anything as outlandish as that, but just..not Donald?

As for the Russians, they really don't play the game (or do they?)

Achievement unlocked, as far as they are concerned.

 

[CRI]

is it really that hard to understand that, for example, the Ukrainians should have a free election process 'without intervention by anyone acting on behalf of another country'?

Are you naive or simply disingenuous?

I'm not talking about the Ukraine, but the US here.

 

[RD2003]

I'm not talking about the Ukraine, but the US here.

Yes, 'you' have different standards there, and never stick your noses in where they're not wanted.

 

[CRI]

Yes, 'you' have different standards there, and never stick your noses in where they're not wanted.

Look, previous threads have been binned because they strayed off topic. Start a thread about democracy in Ukraine and we can talk about that there, okay?

 

[RD2003]

Look, previous threads have been binned because they strayed off topic. Start a thread about democracy in Ukraine and we can talk about that there, okay?

It's the same subject. If you don't like being interfered with, try looking at your own state's interference elsewhere. There's a long, long record of it.

Your privileged position seems to be coming to an end, and you've got to learn to live with it. Looks like it's gonna be difficult.

 

[CRI]

It's the same subject. If you don't like being interfered with, try looking at your own state's interference elsewhere. There's a long, long record of it.

Your privileged position seems to be coming to an end, and you've got to learn to live with it. Looks like it's gonna be difficult.

Ah, the, "I'm so glad those arrogant Yanks are getting their just desserts that I don't care if the rest of the world burns down with them," approach.

Pal, we're all going to have to "learn to live with" the collapse of democracy in the US because like it or not, the impact will be global. If you think that's going to be fun and games, you will probably be in for a big surprise.

 

[RD2003]

Ah, the, "I'm so glad those arrogant Yanks are getting their just desserts that I don't care if the rest of the world burns down with them," approach.

Pal, we're all going to have to "learn to live with" the collapse of democracy in the US because like it or not, the impact will be global. If you think that's going to be fun and games, you will probably be in for a big surprise.

If in doubt play the 'fascism is on the way' card.

 

[teqniq]

Nor s it anything to do with 'just deserts', just facts.

 

[CrabbedOne]

So now the Clinton campaign is the equivalent of "US interests"? But why then when Trump was traduced in 'Pissgate' believed to have been recorded by Russian state actors and delivered by someone possibly associated with another foreign state actor did the press or Democrats not show such scruples? Trump was President elect. Where was the concern about "US interests" then?

I'd not wander around with any delusions about these things being fair. It's really not about the Clinton campaign. She lost. A study into Trump's possible vulnerability to Russian coercion commissioned by a bi-partisan group could be said to be in the US public interest. If she'd won she'd likely be on the path to impeachment as well. With Trump leading the witch hunt into the dirty tricks that stole the election from him. Actually probably more how he saw this grand marketing scheme to boost his brand playing out. Campaigns talking to foreign actors isn't uncommon. Clinton was in contact with the Ukrainians for instance. It's normal with friendly foreign actors and legal provided there's no gifting or espionage but any shenanigans might be coming back to bite her. The big practical problems arise when you come to sneakily deal with US adversaries and can get even worse when you try and cover that up.

Trump is a critter that behaves very suspiciously. It really isn't odd that senior GOP folks increasingly doubt his motives. He has the character profile of a traitor. He's vain, shifty, greedy and deceitful. He appears to be easily played. He has an odd liking for dodgy Russian oligarchs and credit hungry family businesses few conventional lenders will take a punt on. It's Trump's sycophantic attitude to Putin that's unique. Mind he seems to have a similar pash for Mohammad bin Salman as well. A very unwise young man whose going to sit on huge pot of money when he sells of Aramco and a poor bet. Well except in terms of future real estate deals and credit. Trump also waxes hot on cold on Xi, essentially another wealthy princeling, but there he does seem to be seeking US advantage not just advancing family interests though there is some of that as well. Now you've got expect Trump to be feathering his family's nest and I'm sure his base would have little objection to that. But it's easy to form the impression that Trump is unusually careless about US interests over his own or more charitably has at best dumb simplistic ideas and really poor judgement.

Putin may also be an able nest featherer but is a former counter intelligence guy. Those people are paranoid by profession. He's never going to trust even a genuinely well meaning US President. He's a patriot who thinks the US broke the country he grew up in dirt poor. He's not wrong and he bears a grudge. And that's a wise position to take with Trump as Donald has a long history of screwing over and failing partners and investors. It appears his attitude to voters is often similarly fickle. Knowing Putin he will fuck the naive Trump over.

That process may have already begun if you look at the way the Russian media played the Hamburg meeting. Basically a celebration of Trump's belly up submission to Putin. The regime in Syria already broke that ceasefire Suweida and exploited it to launch another offensive to the East against US backed rebels. Where did Trump get that daft cyber security collaboration idea from that he tweeted and then retracted? Looks like a Russian thrown bone to me and the big daft labrador of a man crunches on it like trophy until some grown up points out what a turkey that is. There's plenty to exploit here. Because the best way to damage US standing and Trump with senior GOP folk now is to start pulling concessions from him that look a wee bit like conspiring with the enemy. And however the dumpster fire in the West Wing goes that will make Putin look like the big stable leader to an otherwise discontented Russian population about a quarter of which ain't getting fed properly.

 

[chandlerp]

Not is it anything to do with 'just deserts', just facts.

desserts. deserts are big, sandy places

 

[TomUS]

If in doubt play the 'fascism is on the way' card.

It's not pure fascism, just fascism lite....scapegoating minorities, slashing social programs, slashing taxes on the uber rich, ignoring science/climate change, colluding with the Ruskies to win, rampant corruption, military buildup....no problem?

 

[RD2003]

It's not pure fascism, just fascism lite....scapegoating minorities, slashing social programs, slashing taxes on the uber rich, ignoring science/climate change, colluding with the Ruskies to win, rampant corruption, military buildup....no problem?

Problem yes, but not what I was talking about.

 

[gosub]

 

[DotCommunist]

, ignoring science/climate change

the nazis of course ignored science and soil. Everyone knows that

 

[RD2003]

Ignored in all this, of course, is any sense on the part of US liberals that Trump is a problem largely of their own making.

 

[chandlerp]

Maryland’s attorney general, Brian Frosh, called the request “repugnant”. “It appears designed only to intimidate voters,” he wrote, “and to indulge President Trump’s fantasy that he won the popular vote.”

Trump election group backs away from its request for voter data after outcry

 

[DotCommunist]

Ignored in all this, of course, is any sense on the part of US liberals that Trump is a problem largely of their own making.

which is why russian hacking has to be true for them. I don't know either way, the search for smoking guns continues. But they proper need it to be true.

 

[Joe Reilly]

You do seem to be deliberately misunderstanding what people are saying here.

I would suggest that it is in "US Interests" to have a fair election process, without intervention from anyone acting on behalf of another country - particularly one that is under sanction. That is NOT the same as equating US Interests to either the Clinton or the Trump campaign.

"Pissgate" emerged AFTER the elections were over, so too late to have any impact on the election, unless you believe in time travel.

But know what? I also would consider it in "US Interests" to investigate if there is evidence that the US President is or could be being blackmailed into acting against "US Interests."

Is it really that hard to understand?

What you seem to blind to is that the investigation(s) were launched after a patently dodgy dossier (it was complied by someone who never went to Russia) was leaked by the spook community and the media ran with it without checking its provenance (and who paid for it and why). That is not an investigation. That is not in "US interests". You also seem to think that what happens during the election is of greater importance than what happens after it. So the voice of the people is heard. And thereafter the voice of the people is thwarted by cheerleaders for the side that lost.Hurrah! A scrupulously fair election is obviously in "US interests. Repeatedly calling for what amounts to constitutional coup [impeachment] immediately after it is patently not democratic and not in "US interests". It really is not that hard to understand.

 

[8den]

What you seem to blind to is that the investigation(s) were launched after a patently dodgy dossier (it was complied by someone who never went to Russia)

Christopher Steele is a ex MI6 field agent who was stationed in Moscow.


Fuck me is the anything you can get right?

 

[Joe Reilly]

which is why russian hacking has to be true for them. I don't know either way, the search for smoking guns continues. But they proper need it to be true.

Usually the 'smoking gun' metaphor only comes into play when it is accompanied by a metaphorical body. What is very different in the current situation is that so far there is no evidence of a body [hacking or attempting hacking of election] or indeed of any crime committed by anyone outside of the Democratic Party. As far as I'm aware the private company running the democratic system are yet to allow anyone to verify if indeed it was hacked as alleged. And by anyone I mean including the FBI. So they 'don't really need it to be true.' The damage will already have been done by then. Remember, the original story was that Trump was fatally compromised by Russian security. Then the story was that with Russian help Trump hacked the election. Currently it is that team Trump and not the Russians were the ones doing the soliciting...it is basically a trawl. If some new 'lead' does turn up, everything that stands in contradiction to the previous allegations will be brushed aside and the media will start beating the bushes with renewed verve. It can, and will go on, for years.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Christopher Steele is a ex MI6 field agent who was stationed in Moscow.


Fuck me is the anything you can get right?

'Ex' is the operative word. Ex MI6 and ex-Moscow. He never went even went back. And never met his 'sources'. You may be the last man standing to believe it credible.

 

[ohmyliver]

Parts of the dossier have been confirmed in March.
Trump Russia dossier key claim 'verified' - BBC News

and more recently

Trump Jr's email chain appears to match parts of the dossier's claims
Donald Trump Jr.’s Emails Sound Like the Steele Dossier – Mother Jones

I suspect the pee tape bit isn't true though.

 

[ohmyliver]

Also Russian Cyber Hacks on U.S. Electoral System Far Wider Than Previously Known - The hacking is largely thought to be not changing votes but tampering with/obtaining registered voter details.