Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")

[pk]

Child abuse, rape and the targeting of vulnerable young women, and boys, should be spoken about. But I’m not comfortable with the idea that what has happened in this case is a unique feature of Pakistani society. It’s misleading and divisive to reframe this as a race/cultural/religious issue. Scum like this are on the fringes of society and are not representative of the majority of British Muslims.

Although I think Jack Straw is a cunt, even he said that sex offender wings are majority white inmates not Pakistani/Muslim.

These girls, many of whom had been in or come out of care, were vulnerable and needed protection. Rather than looking at how the mechanisms that should have been in place to protect them failed, the debate is concentrating on blaming the evil Muslims. It’s racist scapegoating and doesn’t address the real issue, protecting vulnerable young people from sick fuckers irrespective of what religion/background they are.

I know that it doesn’t matter what I say, the bigotry and racism will keep on fucking coming….

PK - You're either extremely naive or a racist prick.

I'm neither. Thanks for that though - I knew some fool would come on in and start throwing the race card about.

I've already pointed out that the system of care failed these girls, and that social services and the care system have their share of the blame over what happened.

But since you clearly didn't bother reading that post and just piled in with the simplistic accusations of bigotry and racism - you wouldn't know.

Nobody is saying it's a unique feature of Pakistani society, that's bullshit, I certainly never said that.

I am saying there is an attitude cultivated over the last 20 years or so from angry young muslim men who are long term unemployed and living in secular ghettoized societies in northern UK who view white girls as sluts and nothing more.

If you have an issue with that statement, then address it, but don't be putting words into my mouth because I'll make you look like a cunt.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Scum like this are on the fringes of society and are not representative of the majority of British Muslims.

Of course they are not, but a culture that represses sexuality will produce perversion. Just as Victorian Christian Britain did.

 

[tbaldwin]

Thing is most people know there is a specific problem with the attitudes of lots of muslim men towards women. And we all know that lots of men from all sorts of backgrounds are misoginistic.....None of it should be swept under the carpet. The idea that any of the issues should not be talked about is just WRONG.
Too many muslim men do see non muslim women as slags and fair game....And a lot of muslim women suffer horrific abuse...

 

[pk]

And a lot of muslim women suffer horrific abuse...

Another issue that tends to get swept under the carpet for fear of being accused of racism/bigotry/islamophobia.

 

[tbaldwin]

PK - You're either extremely naive or a racist prick.

A really really stupid comment. He has made some really good points on this thread.......

 

[pk]

A really really stupid comment. He has made some really good points on this thread.......

Thank you!

I have my moments (rare as they may seem!)

 

[smokedout]

I knew many living in Bradford. And a great many of them did unfortunately foster a love/hate thing with white women.

It was their predominant topic of conversation, and being frustrated young men who were denied sex with the muslim raised women inevitably they envied the more permissive attitude of their British white pub-going peers.
The mission every weekend was to look for "pusseh" and there's no way they would be treating muslim girls with the levels of contempt they harboured for white girls.

i've known just as many white men who've had the exact same attitude towards all women

this whole thing isn't new, growing up in the 80's i remember white are are just for fucking sprayed in big letters on a wall on manningham lane, but contrast that with Page 3, lap dancing clubs and all the other elements that objectify women, its all the same misogynistic bullshit

perhaps its a sign of integration that some young pakistani men now feel confident to show the same contempt towards women (even if not those of the same culture) that many UK men have demonstrated for years

 

[Thimble Queen]

Nobody is saying it's a unique feature of Pakistani society, that's bullshit, I certainly never said that.

I am saying there is an attitude cultivated over the last 20 years or so from angry young muslim men who are long term unemployed and living in secular ghettoized societies in northern UK who view white girls as sluts and nothing more.

TBF I missed out pakistani society in britain from my post but, your attitudes are clear from your own posts.

Your assertion that muslims men see white women as slags is misguided, at best. Men who think woman are slags, think wome are slags regardless of their race/relgion/colour.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What do you do, though, VP? I think people have become completely muddled on this issue. For instance, up and down the country, meetings of Islamic societies are held in university rooms at which women have to sit at the back, heads covered, and are not allowed to speak. These are the 'official' Islamic societies of the universities concerned.

You need to ask yourself what constitutes "official" to the university's provost, board of trustees or management committee? There's an issue here that doesn't pertain to Catholicism, Anglicanism and some of the other Protestant sects, which is that Islam has no official clergy, and therefore no single hierarchy that can declare "Imam X is legit, but Imam Y is a charlatan, practice A is doctrinally-correct, but practice B is a tribal holdover not sanctioned in scripture".

How is this allowed? The universities should not be allowing such discrimination to occur on their premises. But it seems that they're scared of taking action.

Of course they are, because they're led to believe that challenging poor behaviour that can be attributed to matters of belief will be viewed as "racism", rather than an exercise of the university's constitutional or discretionary powers.
Provided a good cover for the likes of Hizb-ut-Tahrir to "evangelise", too, if you don't "police" this sort of thing, and has allowed evangelical Christian organisations to pluck gullible fruit just as easily.

 

[pk]

perhaps its a sign of integration that some young pakistani men now feel confident to show the same contempt towards women (even if not those of the same culture) that many UK men have demonstrated for years

The point is that they do not hold the same opinion towards muslim women. If they foster such bitter contempt only for white girls then that makes it far easier to justify abusing them in this manner.

I'm not going to try and overexamine the reasoning behind it, beyond the perception that white girls are all dirty kuffar sluts and muslim girls are not.

One might speculate that they resent the claustrophobic nature of a tight and strict secular society given the fact that extraordinary levels of debauchery and drunkeness and yes, easy sex, is all over the place outside their community.

Bradford/Manningham is a prime example, ten or twelve streets owned solely by muslim families - and drunken white pub crawlers having noisy sex behind the chippy less than a block away... it does happen and you can imagine the impact on an impressionable young lad from a strict upbringing.

 

[pk]

Men who think woman are slags, think wome are slags regardless of their race/relgion/colour.

Then the next time you hear a muslim lad talk in such a way about a white girl, ask he he feels the same way about a muslim girl, and name one as an example. I think you'll see the difference in attitude immediately.

And don't discuss my "attitudes", you know nothing about me.

 

[frogwoman]

It's probably not just one community, no. But it certainly seems to me that the men from the Muslim community that do this specifically target non-muslim girls as they believe they are inferior and would never do it to 'one of their own'.

I'm sure but the point i've been making is that it isn't only muslim men with these attitudes. BTW when I was in Moldova there was a similar type of thing going on as well (not with the muslim community as there weren't any muslims though) but it worked both ways.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You posted it. Nutjob!

No, if you go back and check, the set of four letters you posted aren't in the same order as the set of four letters I posted.
Fuckwit!

 

[revol68]

i've known just as many white men who've had the exact same attitude towards all women

this whole thing isn't new, growing up in the 80's i remember white are are just for fucking sprayed in big letters on a wall on manningham lane, but contrast that with Page 3, lap dancing clubs and all the other elements that objectify women, its all the same misogynistic bullshit

perhaps its a sign of integration that some young pakistani men now feel confident to show the same contempt towards women (even if not those of the same culture) that many UK men have demonstrated for years

We all know people with such such shitty attitudes but it is undeniable that within very religious communities with alot of restrictions around sexuality and fucked up attitudes about 'purity' you will get a very strong correlation of mysogny towards woman, in particular those women who exist outside these restrictions, in the case of the mulsim community in the UK this will often play out across racial/community lines as the vast majority of the white population are far more secular and engage in behaviour largely frowned upon within muslim communities.

None of this should be in anyway controversial, the only thing that has made it so is the fact Jack Straw is a hypocritical cunt who has sought to play the race card a number of times to cover his own arse, and that there are a great many white liberals who take it as an article of faith that no non white person could ever be a racist, sexist or otherwise a cunt.

 

[frogwoman]

TBF I missed out pakistani society in britain from my post but, your attitudes are clear from your own posts.

Your assertion that muslims men see white women as slags is misguided, at best. Men who think woman are slags, think wome are slags regardless of their race/relgion/colour.

There are people around, often from very religious/conservative groups , who think that women from certain communities are slags and "fair game" though.

 

[smokedout]

The point is that they do not hold the same opinion towards muslim women. If they foster such bitter contempt only for white girls then that makes it far easier to justify abusing them in this manner.

I'm not going to try and overexamine the reasoning behind it, beyond the perception that white girls are all dirty kuffar sluts and muslim girls are not.

One might speculate that they resent the claustrophobic nature of a tight and strict secular society given the fact that extraordinary levels of debauchery and drunkeness and yes, easy sex, is all over the place outside their community.

Bradford/Manningham is a prime example, ten or twelve streets owned solely by muslim families - and drunken white pub crawlers having noisy sex behind the chippy less than a block away... it does happen and you can imagine the impact on an impressionable young lad from a strict upbringing.

yes, i dont think we're really in disagreement, i just think you're over simplifying

the pakistani community as a whole in bradford is much more secular than a lot of people realise, the idea that the men will only target white women when believe it or not there are plenty of young asian girls quite happy to fuck them is a bit naive

its much much more complex an issue than is being portrayed and the solutions, if they exist, need to examine far more than just a narrow group of men from a narrow section of pakistani society

its bollocks to accuse you of racism on this thread, but i do think you may be over-estimating the importance of a bunch of loud lairy young men you met once, that you might find in any culture, and attempting to transpose it onto a wider community

 

[ViolentPanda]

The "arseem" - young men in a gap year between college and obligatory military conscription - are certainly of the "fuck/fight anything that moves" mentality.

They're not too great for a few years after national service, either. They're so used to having armed buddies at their beck and call that they need to be re-educated into a semblance of civilised behaviour. One of the many reasons I stopped visiting Israel. It gets a bit boring if you're regularly having to give lessons in manners.

 

[pk]

They're not too great for a few years after national service, either. They're so used to having armed buddies at their beck and call that they need to be re-educated into a semblance of civilised behaviour. One of the many reasons I stopped visiting Israel. It gets a bit boring if you're regularly having to give lessons in manners.

I found most of them fucking disgusting in their attitudes, but the nice guys were really cool people. Takes all sorts innit.

 

[smokedout]

None of this should be in anyway controversial, the only thing that has made it so is the fact Jack Straw is a hypocritical cunt who has sought to play the race card a number of times to cover his own arse, and that there are a great many white liberals who take it as an article of faith that no non white person could ever be a racist, sexist or otherwise a cunt.

exactly its not controversial and its verging on blatantly obvious

its worth noting that communities in yorkshire were hardly liberal bastions of hedonism, and indeed still arent, its always been quite an up tight culture regarding sex, women, and anything not from yorkshire, and resultingly always had quite heavy undertones of violence - queer bashing in bradford being one example (not sure if it still happens to the same extent, but it was a very big problem at one time)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There are people around, often from very religious/conservative groups , who think that women from certain communities are slags and "fair game" though.

Yep. The problem with Jack Straw pointing this out though is 1. he's singled out one group, and 2. he was part of a government that did not defend the concept of the secular state.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Then the next time you hear a muslim lad talk in such a way about a white girl, ask he he feels the same way about a muslim girl, and name one as an example. I think you'll see the difference in attitude immediately.

And don't discuss my "attitudes", you know nothing about me.

I know plenty of muslim men and haven't heard them talk about any women in the way that you describe. I have seen plenty of white and black lads come and harrass me and my mates in the street/pub/club whatever.

If what your claiming about muslim blokes not doing it to there own is true, there there wouldn't need to be services like this http://www.nawp.org/

Going back to my point: Those men who think woman are inferior/sluts/deserving abuse, think that regardless of religion.

You have expressed your attitudes quite clearly and I will call you out on them.

 

[elbows]

For me though the issue that is not really being addressed is the strata of our society that these poor girls are coming from. I would be willing to bet that almost all of them are products of broken homes, backgrounds in which the primary income has always been from state and so on.

Essentially those of us on the right have tended to dismiss them as just being feckless and workshy whilst the left have not really had the courage to face up the reality and complexities of the situation which is a mine-field no matter what we might all think.

I feel that there is a lot to be learnt from what has been going on from every section of modern British society and none of us come out of this covered in anything other than something very smelly and unpleasant.

Yes the vulnerable deserve a lot lot more attention than they are likely to get when these issues get discussed. I doubt you and I will have quite the same ideas about the problems and how to solve them, but I think people of most political persuasions might agree that there is something very wrong with the manner in which we intervene in this country. Too little, too late. Not that its at all easy to solve these problems, and in recent centuries our ability to actually do stuff effectively to protect humans from all manner of horrors has fallen way behind our general awareness and moral desire to protect.

Mind you even if we cannot hope to solve the underlying issues that leave people vulnerable, and the discussions can get severely clouded or misdirected by issues of race and culture, we should be able to do quite a lot at catching and deterring perpetrators. How much of this stuff goes on that is either undetected or does not lead to prosecutions? At least this current case will hopefully lead to more focus on prevention of this stuff, and will cause some potential perpetrators to think twice.

The race aspect is a mess. If only humans did not find it so easy to get caught up in racial prejudice it would be so much easier to address all of the real issues that can exist within particular cultures etc, without fear of inappropriate escalation of racial tensions, divisions etc. As things stand it is hard to imagine how we could reach such a point, given that prejudice about any particular group is powered by some of the basic mechanisms for how the mind learns to categorise, generalise, and apply past knowledge to decision-making in the present. So, we just have to find a way to discuss and act upon issues which stray into this territory as best we can. There are no easy solutions, and people keeping quiet about issues because you fear the use that racists could make of this ammo is frequently counterproductive. It does not rob them of ammo really, it may in some sense 'keep a lid on things', but the potential horrors remain, lurking, and could yet become more explosive ammo if all this stuff builds up and one day the lid blows off. At the very least there needs to be a certain amount of honest and careless discussion in order to act as a pressure-release valve.

Returning to the victims and the vulnerable, teenagers are certainly failed in many ways by our modern societies often-contradictory attitudes towards coming of age. Still I suppose there have always been issues here, and in some ways it not so much a modern problem but rather we are quite a bit more open about discussing the realities than we were many decades ago. We have tried to equip teenagers with the knowledge that will help them deal with the world of sex, drugs & booze that they are entering.

I wish I could get a better sense of the scale of abuse in general, including with in the family. I really wonder how many of the people who are vulnerable to abuse of one sort or another from strangers & peers got to this spot because or earlier abuse at home.And although as a society we do acknowledge the existence of abuse within families, its woefully underrepresented in the media & in public discourse, where stranger-danger reigns supreme. I would imagine that successful detection, intervention and prosecutions are far too few as well.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Child abuse, rape and the targeting of vulnerable young women, and boys, should be spoken about. But I’m not comfortable with the idea that what has happened in this case is a unique feature of Pakistani society. It’s misleading and divisive to reframe this as a race/cultural/religious issue. Scum like this are on the fringes of society and are not representative of the majority of British Muslims.

Of course. You won't find that anyone has said different.
It's also very obviously a non-racialised problem in the care system, given that it was an ongoing issue when I had dealings with that system in the mid-1970s, and has continued to be since (most often with the connivance or even direct participation of care staff, it needs to be said).

Although I think Jack Straw is a cunt, even he said that sex offender wings are majority white inmates not Pakistani/Muslim.

That's to do with demographics. Our BME population in the UK (not counting the Welsh, Scots, or Northern Irish ) is only around 14% of the population, currently.

These girls, many of whom had been in or come out of care, were vulnerable and needed protection. Rather than looking at how the mechanisms that should have been in place to protect them failed, the debate is concentrating on blaming the evil Muslims. It’s racist scapegoating and doesn’t address the real issue, protecting vulnerable young people from sick fuckers irrespective of what religion/background they are.

The debate resides there because that is where the media places it. Prurience sells better than an analysis of the systemic failure of organisations charged with the care of children.

I know that it doesn’t matter what I say, the bigotry and racism will keep on fucking coming….

Of course it will. there'll always be ignorant cunts.
Doesn't mean you should give up challenging it, though.

PK - You're either extremely naive or a racist prick.

TBF, he's neither.

 

[pk]

i do think you may be over-estimating the importance of a bunch of loud lairy young men you met once, that you might find in any culture, and attempting to transpose it onto a wider community

Maybe. And I accept that it's certainly not an attitude that is overtly prevalent in London based Pakistani origin muslims.

However I do think that in recent years (post 9/11) there is a new assertiveness that has emerged among young muslim men, they have identified with the fear factor and carry the stick of islam to back up their notions.

It's all to easy to find a piece of the Qu'ran to justify almost anything, if you apply generous misreading to it.

Interesting to note is the fact that since these six men were arrested, they grew their beards long and took to wearing islamic dress.

And let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a specific crime of "street grooming".

In Scandanavia there are reports of similar style attacks too...

Norway: While 65 percent (SEE BELOW - ACTUAL FIGURE REPORTED TO BE 6.5%) of those charged with rape are classed as coming from a non-western background, this segment makes up only 14.3 percent of Oslo's population. Norwegian women were the victims in 80 percent of the cases, with 20 percent being women of foreign background.

NOTE: APPARENTLY THE FIGURE OF 65% WAS A WIDELY CIRCULATED MISPRINT, THE ACTUAL FIGURE BEING 6.5%
SEE HERE FOR FURTHER INFO: http://www.ablemesh.co.uk/thoughtsmuslimsnotrapists.html
However the 65% or 6.5% figure was calculated using figures from 2004.

In 2009 the Oslo police reported that rape statistics for the past three years showed that none of the rapes in the city were committed by native Norwegians — all were committed by immigrants.

Denmark: An Islamic Mufti in Copenhagen sparked a political outcry after publicly declaring that women who refuse to wear headscarves are "asking for rape."

It's certainly easy for muslim men to find justification for abusing non-muslim girls in the teachings of some of the more hysterical clerics.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

No, if you go back and check, the set of four letters you posted aren't in the same order as the set of four letters I posted.
Fuckwit!

lol

 

[pk]

I know plenty of muslim men and haven't heard them talk about any women in the way that you describe. I have seen plenty of white and black lads come and harrass me and my mates in the street/pub/club whatever.

Muslim men rarely go to the pub/club whatever. You'll rarely see them with a drink in them, unlike the black/white men you mention.

Going back to my point: Those men who think woman are inferior/sluts/deserving abuse, think that regardless of religion.

I disagree. I think it's a far more prevalent attitude in muslim societies than you appear to want to accept.

And you may call me out on any aspect of my comments, but do so with respect if you expect it reciprocated.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I know plenty of muslim men and haven't heard them talk about any women in the way that you describe.

Such men wouldn't discuss it in front of you, though, would they? That's part of being that kind of misogynist - that you mind your language in front of women. It's a bit like racist white people whose racism only comes out in all-white company.

 

[London_Calling]

Anyone mentioned young Pakistani women yet?

How can this be avoided when an aspect of 21st British culture still puts a value on female virtue - ultimately a financial value - which is itself derived from a sense of ownership of that female by her male siblings and/or father.

 

[tbaldwin]

Such men wouldn't discuss it in front of you, though, would they? That's part of being that kind of misogynist - that you mind your language in front of women. It's a bit like racist white people whose racism only comes out in all-white company.

Very true....There is a real problem here with lots of muslim mens attitude to women. I know of a few women who have suffered directly and sweeping the issue under the carpet on whatever grounds is WRONG WRONG WRONG.
And it is important to tackle mysoginist attitudes and the idea that people should be treated as possesions. Religion makes the problem of sexism and violent sexism worse. It promotes backward and irrational attitudes that encourage some men to view lots of women as just pieces of meat.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

Can't be bothered to wade through this thread but while their are racist and disgusting attitudes in all communities is this disproportionate in the pakistani community?

Not convinced. Loads of white men go out to Thailand and shag under age women out there because they have racist views and are sexual predators.

I was also reading about how some in the Jewish community in Israel have a thing about bringing in Palestinian prostitutes, again often under aged, because of their racist and sick attitudes.

The point is why should we start talking about whole pakistani/white/jewish communities when in all cases it is very small minority.