Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")

[pk]

Wrıtıng as I do from Istanbul, where I've lıved on and off for the last two years, I can tell you categorıcally that the vast majorıty of Turkısh men would repudıate that attıtude wıth at least as much vehemence as you do.

Thıs kınd of generalızıng does no-one any good.

Istanbul is not really representative of Turkey as a whole.

I'm sure you might not be too happy if a UK female friend decided to tour the south-eastern provinces and more rural areas without being properly covered up and wearing a prominent wedding band.

 

[pk]

It wasnt me who mentioned them I just found it a bit strange to use 2 majority Muslim countries/communities to make the point that such things are not only carried out by individuals in a Muslim community.

As did I, but it serves to highlight the problem as I see it.

 

[phildwyer]

I dated a muslim girl in my teens for a year

I marrıed one.

You're generalızıng from lımıted experıence wıth an partıcular sectıon of Muslım men--the ones who you mıght meet whıle backpackıng perhaps. I thınk that's also the problem I have wıth comments lıke Straw's. They make ıt sound as though thıs ıs problem endemıc to Muslım communıtıes, or somethıng to do wıth the nature of Islam. It ısn't. I'll lımıt my comments to Turkey, because ıt's the only Islamıc country ın whıch I've lıved, but I can tell you for sure that women--Western or local--are teated wıth a great deal more respect here than they are ın the UK or the USA.

 

[ernestolynch]

In my opinion the liberals who refuse to admit that there is an issue are racist. End of.

 

[phildwyer]

Istanbul is not really representative of Turkey as a whole.

True enough.

I'm sure you might not be too happy if a UK female friend decided to tour the south-eastern provinces and more rural areas without being properly covered up and wearing a prominent wedding band.

A weddıng rıng wouldn't be necessary. I suppose ''properly covered up'' ıs a matter of defınıtıon. It's true that a mını-skırt wouldn't be a good ıdea, but then walkıng through London ın a bıkını would attract the wrong sort of attentıon too. A dıfference of degree, not of kınd.

 

[ernestolynch]

Turkey is that way, especially in Constantinople, because of 90 years of strong-arm state secularism.

 

[phildwyer]

In my opinion the liberals who refuse to admit that there is an issue are racist. End of.

There's no ıssue wıth Islam per se or wıth Muslıms per se. There's an ıssue wıth some Muslıms (who most Muslıms would despıse as much as you do).

What's racıst ıs to generalıze from the partıcular to the unıversal.

 

[pk]

I marrıed one.

You're generalızıng from lımıted experıence wıth an partıcular sectıon of Muslım men--the ones who you mıght meet whıle backpackıng perhaps. I thınk that's also the problem I have wıth comments lıke Straw's. They make ıt sound as though thıs ıs problem endemıc to Muslım communıtıes, or somethıng to do wıth the nature of Islam. It ısn't. I'll lımıt my comments to Turkey, because ıt's the only Islamıc country ın whıch I've lıved, but I can tell you for sure that women--Western or local--are teated wıth a great deal more respect here than they are ın the UK or the USA.

I'll take your word for it, from an Istanbul perspective.

But I disagree with you in regards to the nature of Islam.

---
From Wiki:
The Qur'an and the hadith see slavery as an exceptional condition that can be entered into under certain limited circumstances.
Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war could become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim.
---
This in my view can easily be used as justification for the behaviour of these six men. It's an extreme example, but the get-out clause of an historically justified perspective has its role here. All good fodder for debate either way.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Interesting. This was something the BNP made a lot of capital out of a few years ago.

Although some of them became strangely reticent when asked about their holidays in Thailand...

 

[phildwyer]

I don't thınk anyone on thıs thread ıs a racıst.

We also need to remember the long hıstory of thıs ıssue's exploıtatıon by racısts. Thınk of how Amerıcan black men were supposed to seduce whıte women ın varıous coercıve ways, and the manner ın whıch that was used by the KKK. That doesn't mean ıt dıdn't happen. But ıt was wrong then to call that a problem wıth the ''black communıty'' and ıt's wrong now to call thıs a problem wıth the ''Muslım communıty.''

I don't thınk anyone on thıs thread ıs a racıst.

 

[ernestolynch]

Lol, good point about Huns and their attitudes towards oriental women.

 

[phildwyer]

I'll take your word for it, from an Istanbul perspective.

But I disagree with you in regards to the nature of Islam.

---
From Wiki:
The Qur'an and the hadith see slavery as an exceptional condition that can be entered into under certain limited circumstances.
Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war could become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim.
---
This in my view can easily be used as justification for the behaviour of these six men. It's an extreme example, but the get-out clause of an historically justified perspective has its role here. All good fodder for debate either way.

Actually the Koran forbıds the enslavement of Chrıstıans and Jews, as well as Muslıms.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That doesn't mean ıt dıdn't happen.

To what extent did it happen? And in what ways was it 'coercive'?

 

[likesfish]

as dylans pointed out islam is not a race or a nation its not even a shared belief in pakistan.
shitty attitudes to women is quite prevalant in lots of cultures when it rubs up against a liberal culture you may well get trouble.
espically if you have young men who want the liberal pluses just for them but not "there" women.
the bloke blinged up with his jawa walking a few feet behind for example.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Religious edicts about covering up don't help, though. Such things are part of culture too.

 

[pk]

ıt's wrong now to call thıs a problem wıth the ''Muslım communıty.''

I think attitudes among young (and older) muslim men living in predominantly muslim inner cities in the UK certainly do have an attitude problem in regards to young white British women.
As I have said - a great many of them think British white women are just "slags" who deserve to be raped.
Thus it is an issue that the muslim communities need to address.

 

[DrRingDing]

Has ringsting issues with Straw because Straw is Jewish?

Yes.

 

[Fuchs66]

As did I, but it serves to highlight the problem as I see it.

I suppose it depends whether you see the problem as being restricted to the community with a Pakistani background or whether you see it as a problem of Muslim communities/countries in general.

 

[phildwyer]

To what extent did it happen? And in what ways was it 'coercive'?

Far less than was claımed by the racısts.

 

[Fullyplumped]

In many cities - they are.

I suppose so. We're in trouble then. I think wearing kilts may be part of the answer, judging by this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00x7656/PreTeen_Proms/ - 46m 25s.

I suspect the wee Pakistani Scots boy and his parents in this programme are unlikely to have the attitudes that encourage separation.

 

[phildwyer]

I think attitudes among young (and older) muslim men living in predominantly muslim inner cities in the UK certainly do have an attitude problem in regards to young white British women.
As I have said - a great many of them think British white women are just "slags" who deserve to be raped.
Thus it is an issue that the muslim communities need to address.

All I can say ıs that I'm frıends wıth quıte a few Brıtısh Muslıms, and none of them would countenance thıs sort of attıtude for a nanosecond.

Do you know many Brıtısh Muslıms? If so, would any of them behave ın the way descrıbed by Straw?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Far less than was claımed by the racısts.

Do you have any evidence that it happened at all? And what were the means of coercion used?

Or is it more likely that we are talking overwhelmingly here of white women who wanted to sleep with black men? Given the unequal power relations, which way is any coercion most likely to have occurred, from woman to man or from man to woman?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It should be dealt with by the communities affected. I don't see shit stirring in the media as helping at all.

That'd be great if it actually happened to any extent, but it doesn't. For example, in the Jewish community, 40 years of trying to get the Orthodox to bring their divorce rules in line with the rest of Jewry (and with the modern world) has failed. The only thing that stirs the pot is when the media get hold of another story of an Orthodox man divorcing his wife, but denying HER a get (permission to re-marry), and making a fuss about patriarchal oppression.
Communities don't police themselves very well when they have, in effect, a self-selected, non-elected power-elite "managing" them.

 

[phildwyer]

Do you have any evidence that it happened at all? And what were the means of coercion used?

Or is it more likely that we are talking overwhelmingly here of white women who wanted to sleep with black men? Given the unequal power relations, which way is any coercion most likely to have occurred, from woman to man or from man to woman?

I thınk we're makıng the same poınt here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Communities don't police themselves very well when they have, in effect, a self-selected, non-elected power-elite "managing" them.

Quite right. We should not simply hand over responsibility for the well-being of our neighbours to our neighbours' fathers.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I thınk we're makıng the same poınt here.

Not quite. What I'm saying is that the KKK promulgated a lie.

 

[pk]

Actually the Koran forbıds the enslavement of Chrıstıans and Jews, as well as Muslıms.

But it does appear to permit the rape of "slaves".

Here is a reference permitting to rape captive women:

Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath God ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property, - desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and God is All-knowing, All-wise. S. 4:24 Y. Ali

The above passage emphatically allows for the raping of women that are taken captive, even if these captives happened to be married!

It did not remain an abstract theoretical right, but was readily put into practice by the Muslim jihadists:

Abu Sirma said to Abu Sa'id al Khadri (Allah he pleased with him): O Abu Sa'id, did you hear Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) mentioning al-'azl? He said: Yes, and added: We went out with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) on the expedition to the Bi'l-Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing 'azl (Withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: We are doing an act whereas Allah's Messenger is amongst us; why not ask him? So we asked Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), and he said: It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born. (Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Number 3371)

Abu Said al-Khudri said: The apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, ‘And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess’. That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Volume 2, Number 2150)

Ibn Kathir wrote:

<except those whom your right hands possess>

except those women whom you acquire through war, for you are allowed such women after making sure they are not pregnant.

Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri said, "We captured some women from the area of Awtas who were already married, and we disliked having sexual relations with them because they already had husbands. So, we asked the Prophet about this matter, and this Ayah was revealed…

<Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess>.

Consequently, we had sexual relations with these women." This is the wording collected by AT-Tirmidhi, An-Nasa’i, Ibn Jarir and Muslim in his Sahih. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir (Abridged) Volume 2, Parts 3, 4 & 5 (Surat Al-Baqarah, Verse 253, to Surat An-Nisa, Verse 147), abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houston, New York, Lahore; First edition, March 2000], p. 422

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/women_in_islam3.htm
(Evangelist Christian website)

 

[DrRingDing]

All the people I've been friends with that are Muslim or come from an Islamic background have high moral standards and very sound. They have all had to put up with shit from racist cunts. The very same cunts that are fuelled by sensational tabloid tales. It's fucking sickening.

 

[phildwyer]

Not quite. What I'm saying is that the KKK promulgated a lie.

That's what I'm sayıng too.

 

[Fullyplumped]

Yes.

That was an interesting and unexpected reply. Would you care to expand on your answer? If Jack Straw is Jewish, why would that be relevant?