Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")

[ViolentPanda]

'They' spend 'all the money blowing up schools'?

So, you're a tubthumper for the Afghan war?

....and yes I have a couple of mates that regularly end up there but I don't translate my fears for their safety into hate for Muslims.

Me neither. I don't like that they're there, or that our arsehole government keeps them there to lend legitimacy to the US's need for strategic control in that part of the world, whatever the cost in lives, but what I like even less is people who try to justify their prejudices through reference to a conflict that many of them refuse to look beyond the surface of.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

pk, you think NATO forces invaded Afghanistan in order to end the human rights abuses of the Taliban?

You think the continuation of this war has anything to do with justice or freedom?

Fuck!

I don't have any friends or relatives there, thank fuck. If I did, I'd just be even more angry about the war than I already am.

 

[pk]

So, not what you just claimed.

I've claimed nothing of the sort, I've pointed to figures provided by people who deal with this sort of thing in an official capacity.

You're just too fucking thick too see the difference.

 

[butchersapron]

"The Iranians are doing this because they fundamentally disagree with our way of life," he said. "At some point we have got to get our head out of the sand and understand Iraq is one part of a far bigger picture right across the region. People are going to have to face that struggle."

.

 

[DrRingDing]

Your lack of clarity in what you meant when you said "I'd wager that I'm the only one on this thread to have really suffered at the hands of 'traditional' islamic values" is disappointing but predictable.

If you hadn't stooped to petty ad hominem remarks and kept it civil then maybe I'd want to talk openly.

Seeing as you obviously want to exploit my shitty experience, you, my old chestnut, can fuck right off.

 

[belboid]

I've claimed nothing of the sort,

oh yes you did. Really, cant you remember what you write from one second to the next?

Do 100% of rapes in Oslo come from effniks?

According to police figures that nobody has yet disproved, they do.

And this is all you are left with, one highly dodgy figure from one cop. Pretty much worthless

 

[DrRingDing]

Quite possibly

Have you ever been to Norway?

Went there once for 2 days by7 accident

Awful, awful place

I've been to Norway a few times.

Good waffles and jam.

 

[pk]

pk, you think NATO forces invaded Afghanistan in order to end the human rights abuses of the Taliban?

I think it was a factor, and certainly played a role in the PR spin that led UK forces to head over there.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think it was a factor.

I'm sorry, but that is extraordinarily naive.

 

[pk]

If you hadn't stooped to petty ad hominem remarks and kept it civil then maybe I'd want to talk openly.

Oh you have to be fucking kidding me, you hypoctitical fuckwit.

Seeing as you obviously want to exploit my shitty experience, you, my old chestnut, can fuck right off.

I don't want to "exploit" anything, you made a bold claim and then you ran away when asked to expand on it.

 

[pk]

I'm sorry, but that is extraordinarily naive.

I'm not being naive, everyone here knows full well it was about fuel pipelines dressed up as 9/11 revenge, plus a huge push from military contractors to sell more weapons... but you think there was no use of human rights abuses in convincing the public that we should join the fight??

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's not what I asked. Do I think that the repressive nature of the Taliban and a desire to free the Afghan people from their rule was a factor in the decision to invade? Absolutely not. Has it been a factor in the propaganda campaign? Yes, but that is a different question, and in fact, it has only been used to justify the war since the invasion took place. When it took place, the only justification given was the 'need to deal with al Qaida'.

I believe the phrase apologists for this kind of thing use is 'mission creep'.

 

[TruXta]

If pk claimed that all rapes in Oslo were perpetrated by non-Western immigrants that is patently false. I'm guessing what s/he refers to is a widely debated statistic that was put out by the top police chief of Oslo last year where she showed that all 41 reported rapes involving GBH or threats thereof had NWIs as defendants. The latest figure I've heard is that an estimated 16000 rapes happen in Norway every year. I strongly doubt that NWIs are responsible for all of those, whether in Oslo or elsewhere.

 

[belboid]

If pk claimed that all rapes in Oslo were perpetrated by non-Western immigrants that is patently false. I'm guessing what s/he refers to is a widely debated statistic that was put out by the top police chief of Oslo last year where she showed that all 41 reported rapes involving GBH or threats thereof had NWIs as defendants. The latest figure I've heard is that an estimated 16000 rapes happen in Norway every year. I strongly doubt that NWIs are responsible for all of those, whether in Oslo or elsewhere.

I think you're right, but what he actually said was... as above.

Of course what else he is doing, is cherry picking a single type of crime, the one, and seemiongly only one, that supports his daft argument, and using that as proof. Without really meaning to he has written off those other 15959 rapes as much less important than the ones committed by foreigners, which is also pretty shitty.

 

[TruXta]

It's a bit like when ethnic whiteys kill and maim each other that's just ya know, everyday violence. But when the ethnic peeps are at it, well that's gorra be honor killings then m'lord!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think you're right, but what he actually said was... as above.

Of course what else he is doing, is cherry picking a single type of crime, the one, and seemiongly only one, that supports his daft argument, and using that as proof. Without really meaning to he has written off those other 15959 rapes as much less important than the ones committed by foreigners, which is also pretty shitty.

To look sensibly at the stats, you need more information. You can make a distorted case by choosing your data carefully. For instance, in the period preceding the three years the copper chose, it may not have been the case that the majority of such crimes were committed by ethnic minorities. This is a very low figure, after all, so it will be subject to a fair bit of random variation. Did she choose this period to look at and then find this statistic? Or did she notice the statistic and choose the period to report accordingly? These are two very different things to do.

Also, you have to look at other factors. For instance, is it the case that rapes involving GBH are generally committed more by people from certain socio-economic groups than others? The ethnic groups concerned may be a small minority overall, but what percentage are they of lower socio-economic groups that are over-represented anyway in this kind of crime?

In short, this statistic is pretty worthless on its own even if it's true.

 

[pk]

oh yes you did. Really, cant you remember what you write from one second to the next?





And this is all you are left with, one highly dodgy figure from one cop. Pretty much worthless

I'd be prepared to take her word over yours any day.

Not as if you've said anything worth a shit here in 70+ pages anyway.

 

[TruXta]

There's a lot more statistics out there, but stated very very simply, it is true that NWIs are over-represented in the sexual crime stats for OSLO, and have been for some time. In 2000 65% (72 of 111) of all accused of rape in Oslo were NWIs. In 2004 the proportion was 50%, whereas overall the proportion of NWIs in Oslo's population was about 18%. OTOH, while 80% of victims in 2000 were white, in 2004 34% were non-white (I can't find any newer numbers there).

 

[belboid]

Not as if you've said anything worth a shit here in 70+ pages anyway.

pot/kettle

 

[TruXta]

So, pk, are you prepared to admit that you were wrong about the rape stats in Oslo?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There's a lot more statistics out there, but stated very very simply, it is true that NWIs are over-represented in the sexual crime stats for OSLO, and have been for some time. In 2000 65% (72 of 111) of all accused of rape in Oslo were NWIs. In 2004 the proportion was 50%, whereas overall the proportion of NWIs in Oslo's population was about 18%. OTOH, while 80% of victims in 2000 were white, in 2004 34% were non-white (I can't find any newer numbers there).

These are tiny figures from which to spot trends, though. Also, while overall NWIs in Oslo may be 18 per cent, what percentage are they of the lowest socio-economic groups, and how does violent rape relate to social class. And how do other factors, such as the experience of racism and its alienating effect, fit in?

You've got to be so careful drawing conclusions from this kind of stat. It could be that further investigation and comparisons with elsewhere show a strong correlation between the racist attitudes of the majority population and violent rape stats. In other words, it could be shortcomings in the culture of white Norwegians that is the problem.

 

[TruXta]

I should add that in the groups that are violent, NWIs in Norway as a whole are less likely to perpetate sexual violence than ethnic Norwegians (data from 98-02). Source

 

[TruXta]

These are tiny figures from which to spot trends, though. Also, while overall NWIs in Oslo may be 18 per cent, what percentage are they of the lowest socio-economic groups, and how does violent rape relate to social class. And how do other factors, such as the experience of racism and its alienating effect, fit in?

Those are all very pressing points. Young, poor men from Iraq and Somalia (particularly, but not exclusively) are a lot more likely to perpetrate violent sexual assault against both ethnic Norwegians and fellow NWIs than older more affluent NWIs from less traumatised countries. So, it's a mix of the usual structural causes of crime that apply to all groups of criminals, added to the fact that the alleged perpetrators have typically newly arrived from extremely violent places.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yep, that's another point. They are clearly damaged individuals but that damage is more likely to be the result of their experiences of war than their experiences of Islam. Add to that their experience of racism in Norway... The role Islam plays in all this is far from clear.

 

[TruXta]

Exactly. Even the term NWIs is misleading in some ways - ethnic Chinese and Filipinos in Norway which (to my admittedly scant knowledge) don't come from cultures that are known to be particularly philogynic, are under-represented in the crime stats.

 

[TruXta]

The role Islam plays in all this is far from clear.

I can't think of a worse explanation tbh. It's a bit like saying NW Europe prospered because they were Protestant, or that the Med countries are corrupt because they're Catholic. Culture does need to be in the causal mix, but culture does not equal religion or the other way around.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree. I think between us, we've probably come up with half a dozen more important factors.

 

[TruXta]

<beats chest>yay</thinks of booze>

 

[ericjarvis]

According to police figures that nobody has yet disproved, they do.

They are NOT police figures so far as I can see. There is nothing official on record about them other than a statement by a police officer in a TV interview. They are contradicted by the official police statistics. Which I admit doesn't completely disprove them since Inspector Rohde didn't define what constitutes an "assault rape" in the interview, however it doesn't tally with the official statistics from the Oslo police, the Oslo rape crisis centres, and the Norwegian government, regarding aggravated rape. So I can't see how the statement stands up to scrutiny without further evidence.

 

[TruXta]

They are NOT police figures so far as I can see. There is nothing official on record about them other than a statement by a police officer in a TV interview. They are contradicted by the official police statistics. Which I admit doesn't completely disprove them since Inspector Rohde didn't define what constitutes an "assault rape" in the interview, however it doesn't tally with the official statistics from the Oslo police, the Oslo rape crisis centres, and the Norwegian government, regarding aggravated rape. So I can't see how the statement stands up to scrutiny without further evidence.

I do think it's clear that they are police figures, inasmuch as the internal analysis team in the Oslo police force came up with them, as they have done on previous occasions. Whether you want to call that official or not is another matter, but insofar as the same data is fed into national statistics I don't see how the fact that they're not "official" (whatever you mean by that) has any bearing on their veracity.