Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")

[pk]

He sure do love Jill dando

The comments defending the research and expressing doubts about the reliability of the research ALSO come from the Jill Dando UCL Institute.

You can't have it both ways. That's pretty weak.

Including comments (from the mail) as evidence. Gotcha.

The comments were quoted by the Daily Mail - but also the Times. Are you suggesting the figures are incorrect?

I hope you'll be big enough to explain how they are incorrect.

After all - the Oslo statistics are even more alarming and nobody has managed to disprove them yet.

"Gotcha" my arse.

This is a prime example of how head-in-the-sand attitudes only make the problem far worse.

In 1997, Kamlesh Patel, now Lord Patel of Bradford, produced ground-breaking research which showed without a shadow of a doubt that there was a massive drugs problem in the South Asian communities.

There was a culture of denial among so-called community leaders and he had to fight to get his voice heard.

Now, South Asian men and women are being treated for their drug habits when once they would have been sent to the South Asian sub-continent to get better by concerned parents, who didn't realise that not only would they get worse, but they would forge routes and contacts to smuggle in heroin and other Class A substances.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/journalism/blog/2011/01/inconvenient-truths.shtml

Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, said:

"Men who groom young teenagers to exploit them sexually are committing a crime against humanity, a crime that Islam totally forbids".

Shafiq raised the matter himself two years ago, "because I felt that someone needed to speak out from the Muslim community, to take a stance that would, I hoped, protect teenagers from suffering this heinous evil" but was accused of " bringing shame on our community — These people think that white girls have fewer morals and are less valuable than our girls. This is a form of racism that is abhorrent and totally unacceptable in a society that prides itself on equality and justice."

Are you accusing Mr Shafiq of lying, butchersapron?

 

[butchersapron]

Odd. Ta

 

[pk]

Odd. Ta

Eh?

 

[dylans]

According to the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre, in 2009, the victims were mainly "white British in their mid and late teens" but also Bangladeshi and Afro-Caribbean. In other words - the victims were all non-muslim.

Most Bengali's are Muslim

 

[pk]

Most Bengali's are Muslim

I stand corrected on that.

 

[ericjarvis]

It's a bit embarrassing to see that nobody has actually been able to prove the Oslo figures as complete lies.

Anyone would think that eric jarvis has just flounced off instead of demonstrating his point.
I spent at least an hour and a half looking at the official statistics he provided, and none of them can give a definitive indication that Hanne Kristin Rohde is just making this stuff up.

It doesn't work that way. Without any evidence to back it up all you have is a single statement by one police officer. Whether you choose to believe it or not the simple fact is that the Norwegian stats show no significant rise in the rate of rate cases per capita, merely a rise in numbers that keeps pace with the rise in population. Whether you choose to believe it or not the simple fact is that the rate of rape cases is higher in the north of Norway where there are almost no immigrants compared to Oslo where most of the immigrant population live.

So basically you have two unsupported assertions made by Oslo police officers, one of whom seems to be otherwise invisible. That's your entire "evidence". You then go on to claim that the absence of any statistical evidence to back it up is due to the Norwegian government hiding it. It's about as solid a case as that for crop circles being created by aliens.

 

[dylans]

I stand corrected on that.

This does however raise another issue. Correct me if I am wrong but central to your argument is the idea that non Muslim girls are being deliberately targeted and Muslim girls deliberately avoided not simply for opportunistic reasons but for specifically cultural or religious reasons. You imply that, whether unconsciously or consciously, Muslim girls are avoided because of some kind of cultural taboo and white girls are chosen because of a cultural tendency to look down on non Muslim girls as somehow deserving of abuse or because they are seen as less worthy than Muslim girls. This is your argument right?

Well the example of Bengali girls being mentioned made me think about this. Because as anyone who knows the history of Pakistan knows, Bengalis have historically been treated like shit by West Pakistanis. When Bangladesh was East Pakistan the Bengali people were treated like a colony of West Pakistan and during the war atrocities were committed which came close to genocide in scale and proportions. Including the killing of all Bengali intellectuals and the rape of 300.000 women.

This is my point. The fact that Bangladesh was predominantly Muslim didn't matter a jot to the killers and rapists. Why then should it matter to these criminal gangs.?

This is what is worrying about your posts. This idea that there is some kind of sexual jihad motive behind these criminal actions . The idea that there is something in Islamic culture that leads these gangs to seek out and abuse specifically non Muslims and that I am afraid is a racist argument

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It may be wrong, but it is not racist.

Pronouncing someone racist for attacking Islam, even if that attack is misguided or misinformed, is wrong.

 

[_angel_]

racism

 

[Crispy]

No, "just" bigotry

 

[pk]

It doesn't work that way. Without any evidence to back it up all you have is a single statement by one police officer.

A very high profile police officer who is frequently asked to give comments to the media, NRK and Aftenbladet. If her stats were wrong then I see no evidence of this in alternative official sources, not do I see anyone come out and call her a liar. Quite the opposite in fact.

Whether you choose to believe it or not the simple fact is that the Norwegian stats show no significant rise in the rate of rate cases per capita, merely a rise in numbers that keeps pace with the rise in population.

So are you saying the Norwegian population has doubled in ten years? Because that's what the stats say, using your own sources.

Whether you choose to believe it or not the simple fact is that the rate of rape cases is higher in the north of Norway where there are almost no immigrants compared to Oslo where most of the immigrant population live.

I do believe this is correct, looking at the figures. There is serious lack of specific data to contradict the statements made by Rohde.

So basically you have two unsupported assertions made by Oslo police officers, one of whom seems to be otherwise invisible.

Hanne Kristin Rohde is head of the violent crime and vice section of the Oslo police.

As a senior police officer I would suggest her interpretation of Oslo's statistics is far more informed than yours, given that there appear to be NO statistics for Oslo that contradict her in any of your links.

That's your entire "evidence". You then go on to claim that the absence of any statistical evidence to back it up is due to the Norwegian government hiding it.

Far from it, Norway's government it seems are very open about the citizenship of it's population and does specify the nationality of those overall committing crime.

Do you think it is unlikely that such inflammatory statistics would be hidden away, for whatever reason?

It's about as solid a case as that for crop circles being created by aliens.

Yet it seems to be more solid than yours. I see no motive for head of the violent crime and vice section of the Oslo police to be lying to the media and making outrageously false claims on the record, with the cameras running.

 

[dylans]

It may be wrong, but it is not racist.

Pronouncing someone racist for attacking Islam, even if that attack is misguided or misinformed, is wrong.

It's racist not because it is attacking Islam. It is racist because it ascribes to Islam and to Muslims a libellous accusation . That Islam justifies the sexual abuse of non Muslims and as such is the cause of the sexual abuse of non Muslim girls by these gangs. In fact such behaviour is specifically forbidden on threat of death both in Pakistan law (such as it is) and in the Koran. There is nothing in Islam of any interpretation which preaches the sexual abuse of non Muslims. Raping a non Muslim is as much a crime as raping a Muslim. Hence my example from Bangladesh. To claim that Islam allows for the sexual assault of non Muslims is a blood libel as serious as the historical blood libel associated with Jews. And as racist

 

[pk]

This does however raise another issue. Correct me if I am wrong but central to your argument is the idea that non Muslim girls are being deliberately targeted and Muslim girls deliberately avoided not simply for opportunistic reasons but for specifically cultural or religious reasons. You imply that, whether unconsciously or consciously, Muslim girls are avoided because of some kind of cultural taboo and white girls are chosen because of a cultural tendency to look down on non Muslim girls as somehow deserving of abuse or because they are seen as less worthy than Muslim girls. This is your argument right?

Well the example of Bengali girls being mentioned made me think about this. Because as anyone who knows the history of Pakistan knows, Bengalis have historically been treated like shit by West Pakistanis. When Bangladesh was East Pakistan the Bengali people were treated like a colony of West Pakistan and during the war atrocities were committed which came close to genocide in scale and proportions. Including the killing of all Bengali intellectuals and the rape of 300.000 women.

This is my point. The fact that Bangladesh was predominantly Muslim didn't matter a jot to the killers and rapists. Why then should it matter to these criminal gangs.?

This is what is worrying about your posts. This idea that there is some kind of sexual jihad motive behind these criminal actions . The idea that there is something in Islamic culture that leads these gangs to seek out and abuse specifically non Muslims and that I am afraid is a racist argument

So why are there no Pakistani muslim children being groomed and targetted? If as you say, the Bengali people have been treated in an unspeakably atrocious manner, then surely that lends weight to the argument that the Pakistani men who appear to be most active in this type of crime are rarely, if ever, committing it on girls from their own communities.

 

[dylans]

No, "just" bigotry

If I accuse Jews of using Christian blood in the Sabbath. Am I being racist or merely bigoted?

 

[Crispy]

If I accuse Jews of using Christian blood in the Sabbath. Am I being racist or merely bigoted?

Racism is a subset of bigotry (isn't it?)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What 'Islam allows for' is irrelevant.

What is true is that many Muslims see the world as divided into Muslims and non-Muslims and they apply different standards to each. Hence the concept of apostasy and that it is something that must be punished. I for one find that idea fucking offensive.

The obvious comparison is with the Catholic church. Does Catholicism allow for paedophilia? No. Is it a problem within the Catholic church? Yes. It is a consequence of the societal structure – a celibate clergy – that Catholics have constructed.

If there is any truth to what pk is saying, it is similarly a problem of the societal structure that Muslims (at least some of them) have constructed. Nothing directly to do with any abstract concept of 'Islam'.

 

[dylans]

So why are there no Pakistani muslim children being groomed and targetted? If as you say, the Bengali people have been treated in an unspeakably atrocious manner, then surely that lends weight to the argument that the Pakistani men who appear to be most active in this type of crime are rarely, if ever, committing it on girls from their own communities.

Yes but Bengalis are Muslim. You could be arguing that these gangs avoid girls from West Pakistan or from Kashmir or don't touch girls from Karachi or you could be arguing they only pick girls from Bradford but not Birmingham or whatever. But you are not. You are saying more than that aren't you? You are saying that non Muslim girls are specifically being targeted because they are non Muslim and that the decision to attack non Muslim girls has its basis in the religious or cultural influences of Islam. Or have I got you wrong?

 

[pk]

It's racist not because it is attacking Islam. It is racist because it ascribes to Islam and to Muslims a libellous accusation . That Islam justifies the sexual abuse of non Muslims and as such is the cause of the sexual abuse of non Muslim girls by these gangs. In fact such behaviour is specifically forbidden on threat of death both in Pakistan law (such as it is) and in the Koran. There is nothing in Islam of any interpretation which preaches the sexual abuse of non Muslims. Raping a non Muslim is as much a crime as raping a Muslim. Hence my example from Bangladesh. To claim that Islam allows for the sexual assault of non Muslims is a blood libel as serious as the historical blood libel associated with Jews. And as racist

But from a historical perspective, the taking of slaves, particularly women and children, is encouraged.

the climatic conditions of Arabia the birth-place of Islam, Muhammad’s life-style as a model for Muslims, and injunctions in the Quran and the Hadis, determined Muslim psychology about women. Islam permits polygamy with unbelievable liberality.
A man can have four wives at any point of time, that is, if he chooses to have a fifth one, he can divorce one of the already at hand and keep the number within the legal limits of four.
Besides, he can have as many slave girls or concubines as he pleases.

Women and children were special targets for enslavement throughout the medieval period, that is, during Muslim invasions and Muslim rule.
Captive children of both sexes grew up as Muslims and served the sultans, nobles and men of means in various captives.
Enslavement of young women was also due to many reasons; their being sex objects was the primary consideration and hence concentration on their captivity.

“there is absolutely no limit to the number of slave girls with whom a Muhammadan may cohabit, and it is the consecration of this illimitable indulgence which so popularizes the Muhammadan religion amongst uncivilized nations, and so popularizes slavery in the Muslim religion”

Slave girls had two main functions to perform, domestic service and providing sex if and when required. In medieval Muslim society sex slavery and concubinage were almost interchangeable terms. For the polygamous Muslim men of means slave girls and maids were as much in demand as kanchanis or dancing girls, concubines or even free born women.

http://www.bharatvani.org/books/mssmi/ch12.htm

 

[Superdupastupor]

So why are there no Pakistani muslim children being groomed and targetted? If as you say, the Bengali people have been treated in an unspeakably atrocious manner, then surely that lends weight to the argument that the Pakistani men who appear to be most active in this type of crime are rarely, if ever, committing it on girls from their own communities.

You don't exactly need a degree in sociology to figure out why perps are not grooming within their own communities .... I mean c'mon??.....

 

[pk]

Yes but Bengalis are Muslim. You could be arguing that these gangs avoid girls from West Pakistan or from Kashmir or don't touch girls from Karachi or you could be arguing they only pick girls from Bradford but not Birmingham or whatever. But you are not. You are saying more than that aren't you? You are saying that non Muslim girls are specifically being targeted because they are non Muslim and that the decision to attack non Muslim girls has its basis in the religious or cultural influences of Islam. Or have I got you wrong?

I'm saying Pakistani muslims are rarely if ever targeted.

In my ignorance I had always assumed that Bengalis were Hindu, but your own knowledge testifies to the fact that Bengalis were persecuted in a genocidal manner by the Pakistanis.

 

[Proper Tidy]

If there is any truth to what pk is saying, it is similarly a problem of the societal structure that Muslims (at least some of them) have constructed. Nothing directly to do with any abstract concept of 'Islam'.

But from a historical perspective, the taking of slaves, particularly women and children, is encouraged.

Lol

 

[pk]

You don't exactly need a degree in sociology to figure out why perps are not grooming within their own communities .... I mean c'mon??.....

Yet this does not follow when we look at the vast majority of men jailed for child abuse - they do not discriminate in the same manner.

Neither did Catholic priests for that matter. If anything, the reverse was true.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Neither did Catholic priests for that matter. If anything, the reverse was true.

Fucks sake.

Which kids did Catholic priests have access to?

 

[Superdupastupor]

Yeah I know, but that's flipping it round. If you are part of what is historically an immigrant population you are a subset of the wider population..

 

[pk]

Lol

You flounced off long ago - you've proved you have nothing to say other than pathetic namecalling. This topic is beyond you, clearly.

Carry on with the cheap shots from the sidelines if it makes you feel better, but it only make you look like an impotent cunt.

Like the little kid in the playground who only puts the boot in to the bigger kid when he's being safely held down. That's your style though, eh?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah I know, but that's flipping it round. If you are part of what is historically an immigrant population you are a subset of the wider population..

It's far from obvious, though, that men from a particular immigrant group would seek out women from other groups to exploit rather than women from within their own group to whom they will have easier access.

 

[dylans]

Racism is a subset of bigotry (isn't it?)

There is a lot of linguistic gymnastics that goes on when it comes to accusations of racism when people attack religious minorities. The classic argument (used incessantly by the EDL ) is that attacking Islam cannot be racist because Muslims are not a race, they are a religion. But this misses the point.
Criticism of Islam isn't in itself racist. Islam is a religion that claims a monopoly on truth therefore it invites critique. (I am an atheist and think its all fairy tales fwiw) but this isn't what is going on. What is going on isn't a theological attack on belief. It is a political attack on the rights of a religious and ethnic minority and that is racist.

When conclusions are drawn such as "Islam is incompatable with "western values" or when attempts are made to proscribe certain symbols or practices of Muslims, such as complaining about Mosques or demanding a ban on Niqab etc. What those making those demands are saying is that we don't wish to apply the same democratic rights enjoyed by other citizens to Muslim citizens. We enjoy freedom of expression and belief. Attempts to deny those same freedoms to minority cultures are in fact attempts to deny equal rights to those citizens. This is what is racist, and all too often this is carried out under the cloak of legitimate theological critique.

Make no mistake, the rights of religious minorities (namely Muslim citizens) across Europe are under attack in a way unprecedented since the third reich. Switzerland has banned minarets. France has banned the Niqab, racist attacks are sweeping France and Germany. The far right are enjoying wide support in Holland. And all these attacks are carried out by those who claim not to be racist. They just don't like "Islam.

 

[pk]

Yeah I know, but that's flipping it round. If you are part of what is historically an immigrant population you are a subset of the wider population..

Of course it's flipping it round. You suggested yourself there may be obvious reasons why perps are not grooming within their own communities, it doesn't change the fact that they aren't, and the victims are disproportionately white non-muslim girls. The occasional Bangladeshi child notwithstanding.

 

[Superdupastupor]

well I think the point I'm getting at is that in insular inwardly focused groups an offender is probably far more likely to receive some "community justice" than if he looks further afield for victims

sorry if it all been covered before


*this is the obvious reason i've been getting at BTW.

ETA are you suggesting that muslim on muslim child abuse NEVER happens. and it is exclusively outside the community ...... dunno i'm not a criminologist but it seems unlikely .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What does any of that have to do with the question in hand?