Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")

[One_Stop_Shop]

Cracking post

Agree, it was/is.

pk you still haven't put forward a single constructive point about what to do about all of this.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

In other words, if you genuinely want to work out the role a variable plays you need to look at enough examples of where it is and isn't present. I suggest that there are enough contemporary and historical examples of non-Muslims doing the same thing worldwide that your theory of it's role is very weak, not plausible at all really. I am however willing to be shown differently and will look at your evidence and examples with an open mind.

He won't do anything of the sort, he'll just keep going on about sex jihadis, romeo jihadis, and the muslims wearing bling who also have a bluetooth and listen to the words of radical clerics which on one hand has no affect on them acting in a totally western way but on the other hand sends them into crazed rapists. It's hard to keep up, but it's like reading a mad shock jock on speed.

 

[pk]

You are not providing any stats or evidence that support a broad-brush theory about 1.5bn Muslims around the world or even the 1.5m in the UK. You also need to be able to rule out all other likely variables.

I agree. I'm not trying to insinuate that "all muslims are rapists" - despite what you might be hearing from other people who can't actually quote me saying that.

I'm saying there is a serious attitude problem rising in the UK.

I accept that people often persecute, look down on and abuse less powerful groups or 'outsider' - be that based on ethnicity, caste, nationality, religion or poverty. People in every part of the world have been guilty of this. However you are trying to spin some grand meta-narrative out of some guys in Bradford.

Possibly, I'm prepared to accept there's an element of that. I mentioned Bradford because smokedout was commenting on his experiences there - it just so happened I lived there for a while.

How about testing how well your theories work in other places and at other times? How about applying your theories to the role of Christianity in european imperialism and colonialism?

To what end? To prove that the invading christian forces will invariably become involved in rape? I'm confused as to which theories you refer to.

How about explaining why so many non-muslim men behave in an identical manner - ie exploiting the most vunerable / available / convenient / 'cheapest' and also labelling their victims as 'trash'?

Thing is, I don't see non-muslim gangs of men being convicted of grooming and exploiting 11 and 12 year old kids for rape.

Just to show you where I'm coming from with this, have a quick read towards the end of this recent Economist article where the reporter in India explains how the lower caste women in the village, despite being 'untouchable' due to obligatory contact with dead animals and their neighbourhood being used as the village latrine, are also coerced into providing sex on demand for the village men:

A village in a million

"...There is an exception to the caste divide in Shahabpur, which many Muslim and Hindu men enjoy. For a few rupees or handfuls of rice, they are said to demand and get sex with dalit women, typically just after sundown, when the villagers troop out to the fields to ablute. At an informal gathering of Muslim men outside the house of Anwar Ali—an upstanding clerk, who also housed your correspondent—it was estimated that perhaps 40% of the village’s non-dalit men upheld this ancient tradition. According to Sarju, until Sushila lost her youthful good looks, she suffered near-nightly terrors from drunken patel youths, who came clamouring for her outside his hut..."

So how does your theory about Islam explain this?

Unless I'm missing something here, I don't see how any "theory" I may or may not have can explain this, or is anything to do with the issue at hand.
Which 'theory' do you mean? This has nothing to do with grooming children for rape.

By the way Bradford has a population of 300,000. Dalits in south asia number maybe 200,000,000.

How about testing your theory out on a country with large numbers of Muslims and Christians, for example the 150 million people of Nigeria (50% Muslims, 48% Christian, 2% Other)? I don't know if this would support or contradict your theory but surely it a wider picture is better than taking a tiny sample?

Agreed, I'm sure if there are figures for other places they will be looked into. Trouble is - stats for places like Nigeria are sketchy as best.
It seems the overwhelming majority of cases involve the police and security services as the perps.
http://www.codewit.com/democracy-at-risk/2307-nigeria-rape-the-silent-weapon-

However, in September 1999, several of Nigeria's predominantly Muslim northern states began to adopt a strict interpretation of the Sharia law. By late 2002, 12 out of Nigeria's 36 states had done so.

The new laws impose segregation of the sexes and traditional punishments for the hudud offences.

Women have been banned from working outside of the home and from sharing taxis and buses with men.

Fornication outside marriage is now punishable by stoning (to death), and theft by amputation. http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/people/features/ihavearightto/four_b/casestudy_art07.shtml

 

[pk]

Agree, it was/is.

pk you still haven't put forward a single constructive point about what to do about all of this.

Still trying to work out the facts from the internet fiction, nobody's claiming to have all the answers.

 

[pk]

Surely we need to take a far wider view of pimping, prostitution, rape, trafficking, child abuse etc occur, who tends to be victims and who tend to be oppressors.
Basing a theory on some vaguely defined 'muslim' guys in Bradford is fairly worthless in drawing any bigger conclusions.

Agreed, but I'm not exactly setting up a research commission here.

You can see for yourself a hell of a lot of people angrily dismissing the notion that some muslim gangs of men are specifically targetting non-muslim children, and they are racially abusing them whilst carrying out rape attacks.

Can't really look at anything objectively until people approach a topic rationally.

Also is the issue of censorship and the notion that the BBC and other media institutions are hypersensitive to offending islam, and will edit out news that may be less than flattering to the islamic communities here.

To say anything worthwhile you need to look at the patterns in all parts of the world and identify what they have in common.
Islam can't be much an explanatory factor if exactly the same things are happening where it is not involved at all.

I would like to think someone studying statistics would be in a position to study every corner of the globe, and be able to provide detailed statistics.

But it doesn't work that way, for starters most of these types of crimes go unreported, and certainly in the African continents reliable data is rare.

Taking the wider view it looks far more like it just happens to be an "incidental" variable in Bradford.

Hmmm, the abuses we're talking about happened in Derby...

If it wasn't that they would be out doing the same thing and dressing it up as caste or race or class or citizenship (ie. the self-described 'superior' using the 'inferior' for sex, labour, profit or punching practise).

Also not only across the modern world but throughout history - how much of an explanation is "Islam" when European (for example) armies have gone on rampages of rape and murder?

Surely a safer conclusion is that men throughout history have been doing this, and that they are labelled Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Bhuddist, 'other' or 'none' hasn't stopped them - or made them more or less likely to do so.

Yeah, that's a given, on that basis though, are you saying we should accept it as a human anomaly and disregard what is being reported by Straw and the Blackburn police commissioner?
Because warfaring Europeans did it first?

In other words, if you genuinely want to work out the role a variable plays you need to look at enough examples of where it is and isn't present.
I suggest that there are enough contemporary and historical examples of non-Muslims doing the same thing worldwide that your theory of it's role is very weak, not plausible at all really.

Well then it is really up to you to provide evidence of non-muslim men going out in gangs, and drugging and raping little girls.

I am however willing to be shown differently and will look at your evidence and examples with an open mind.

Basically you're asking that I do my own research in order to prove the contrary to what I believe to be true.



Am I missing something here? I'm not being flippant, but you could be clearer in your wording...

 

[pk]

he'll just keep going on about sex jihadis, romeo jihadis, and the muslims wearing bling who also have a bluetooth and listen to the words of radical clerics which on one hand has no affect on them acting in a totally western way but on the other hand sends them into crazed rapists.

And you'll deny that any such stereotype exists, never mind gangs of them who have access to flash cars and drugs.

Combine the hate speeches of the clerics with the "pimp daddy" bullshit of the rap scene that they will undoubtably have been listening to all their lives... and it isn't really looking that unlikely now is it?

Let's put it this way - IF there is a serious issue, then consider this - the society that cares more about not upsetting islamic sensibilities than about protecting its own citizens is a seriously fucked up society indeed, and if true this needs to be tackled before the BNP type scum make the most of it.

Here's another sobering statistic to get your head around - up to 80 percent of women in Pakistani prisons are there because they have been raped.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/sep/17/pakistan.theobserver

 

[ernestolynch]

I hate Islam, not Muslims.

islamaphobe

 

[ernestolynch]

No it isnt Pakistani, its tribal Kashmiri, the majority of Biritsh Muslims in the north of the UK are from a very small number of valleys in nwhat Pakistan calls Azad (ie liberated) Kashmir - Hindu converts under the Moghuls, where the tribal part is much bigger than than the Muslim part
Most of these peoples did NOT ask their women to wear veils until the Deobandi movement swept Indian Islam in the early/middle 19thC - however, Kashmir, though once under the sway of the Kings of Punjab, have always been hostile towards outsiders.
What you have is bunch of mountain dwelling tribes, basically left alone under the Brit Raj, who then invaded by both India and Pakistan - a shock at best - my main surprise in Bradford was that the English and Asian communties, even tho they had been to school together almost never mixed - the hostility is palpable'
Mountain tribe dropped into another feirce tribal crew, Yorkshiremen - they seem to wish to hurt each other, and it runs deep

This is true, and out of the realm of understanding of Trots from outside the area.

 

[classicdish]

Well then it is really up to you to provide evidence of non-muslim men going out in gangs, and drugging and raping little girls.

Child abuse, sexual abuse, pimping, grooming, prostitution, sexual slavery, trafficking, rape, gang rape and so on - all happen in the americas, europe, the middle east, africa, southern asia, south-east asia and the far east, each of which has roughly 1bn population - so everywhere basically. Obviously the make-up of the criminal gangs (and the victims on which they prey) vary from place to place, but that doesn't seem to make much difference. It's the same kind of shit going on. Obviously there are differences with what people can get away with in some places - for example some really brutal murder sprees in mexico or the systematic rapes linked to the wars in the democratic republic of congo. But even richer, apparently lower-crime or more stable countries often have extensive hidden abuse, trafficking and violence going on.

Historical examples are too countless to list, but the most obvious are linked to warfare or military occupations.

All this is done by people (overwhelmingly men) who are are nominally Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Bhuddist, 'other' or 'none'. Their victims are very often from poorest sections of the population, internal or extrnal migrants fleeing poverty or warfare. So sometimes the exploitation and abuse happens to be 'cross-community' due to sheer opportunism. Sometimes it is 'within-community'. Sometimes it is combined with a high degree of racism or other prejudice, sometimes it is more 'colour-blind' and bound up with general poverty, drug addiction, violence and social breakdown.

You want to make a big thing out of the role of Islam in this by pointing to a handful of examples. I am suggesting that if you are seriously proposing this as a theory then let's apply your idea to the big picture. I am suggesting that it does not work very well as a theory because this abuse is widespread amongst non-muslim populations. Pointing to a tiny handful of cases in one location and ignoring the vast global picture is not very convincing.

An alternative theory is that many men worldwide go out looking for sex, select their targets opportunistically and if there is nothing stopping them some of them will simply take what they want violently. Or maybe they will be able to pay money instead and a pimp will provide the coercion. This may or may not be overlaid with other prejudices, but that is largely incidental to the more general pattern. My argument is that this theory better fits the current and historical record than yours, but I am willing to keep an open mind.

 

[DrRingDing]

islamaphobe

It's not a phobia if you know why you hate.

 

[ernestolynch]

That's what Hitler said.

 

[DrRingDing]

Yep, that's exactly what Hitler said.

 

[The39thStep]

Shame it's addressing statements I didn't actually make though, eh?

But it sums up your position, one based on anecdotes, conjecture, blinkered ego-ism and a bit of googling.

I admit I may have got confused with your speculation about those recently convicted listening to extremism tapes and your experiences with Bradford pimps.Sometimes you blur fact and fiction but hey don't we all like to garnish our lives a bit , make them a tad more interesting then say engineering.

But I was ( as I am sure others are) interested in what your contribution is to this geographical and ideological war we are in that you spoke about against extreme Islam.

Btw I don't want to denigrate your contribution to culture in Bradford but isn't running 'sound sytems' ( which you claimed you did) the same as DJing ?

 

[DrRingDing]

But it sums up your position, one based on anecdotes, conjecture, blinkered ego-ism and a bit of googling.

I admit I may have got confused with your speculation about those recently convicted listening to extremism tapes and your experiences with Bradford pimps.Sometimes you blur fact and fiction but hey don't we all like to garnish our lives a bit , make them a tad more interesting then say engineering.

Spot on.

pk has lost it.

 

[The39thStep]

Can't really be arsed to read the whole thread, but has anyoneone mentioned the reason why the BNP are not making a meal of this? It's because the white blokes convicted in connection with this are BNP members.

They are actually, they had a protest in Oldham at the weekend ( unopposed) and have used it in their by election campaign. Griffin complaining that when he raised it everyone dismissed it and when Straw raises it everyone listens. there is a bit on their TV page.

 

[Fuchs66]

Here we go again (presuming nobody has already linked to this)

Link

 

[pk]

Child abuse, sexual abuse, pimping, grooming, prostitution, sexual slavery, trafficking, rape, gang rape and so on - all happen in the americas, europe, the middle east, africa, southern asia, south-east asia and the far east, each of which has roughly 1bn population - so everywhere basically. Obviously the make-up of the criminal gangs (and the victims on which they prey) vary from place to place, but that doesn't seem to make much difference. It's the same kind of shit going on. Obviously there are differences with what people can get away with in some places - for example some really brutal murder sprees in mexico or the systematic rapes linked to the wars in the democratic republic of congo. But even richer, apparently lower-crime or more stable countries often have extensive hidden abuse, trafficking and violence going on.

Historical examples are too countless to list, but the most obvious are linked to warfare or military occupations.

All this is done by people (overwhelmingly men) who are are nominally Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Bhuddist, 'other' or 'none'. Their victims are very often from poorest sections of the population, internal or extrnal migrants fleeing poverty or warfare. So sometimes the exploitation and abuse happens to be 'cross-community' due to sheer opportunism. Sometimes it is 'within-community'. Sometimes it is combined with a high degree of racism or other prejudice, sometimes it is more 'colour-blind' and bound up with general poverty, drug addiction, violence and social breakdown.

You want to make a big thing out of the role of Islam in this by pointing to a handful of examples. I am suggesting that if you are seriously proposing this as a theory then let's apply your idea to the big picture. I am suggesting that it does not work very well as a theory because this abuse is widespread amongst non-muslim populations. Pointing to a tiny handful of cases in one location and ignoring the vast global picture is not very convincing.

An alternative theory is that many men worldwide go out looking for sex, select their targets opportunistically and if there is nothing stopping them some of them will simply take what they want violently. Or maybe they will be able to pay money instead and a pimp will provide the coercion. This may or may not be overlaid with other prejudices, but that is largely incidental to the more general pattern. My argument is that this theory better fits the current and historical record than yours, but I am willing to keep an open mind.

So no comment on the 80 percent of women in Pakistani jailed being there because they were raped, and the possible cultural conflicts such attitudes foster - as well as no mention of the grooming of children for rape - grooming of non-muslim children by muslim men, which after all is the thread topic.

You've provided lots of info regarding prostitution, but offered little in terms of the impact on UK society of the picture emerging of decades of organised muslim gangs drugging and pimping children, and the fact that it has been kept out of the public domain.

You appear keen to suggest "everyone else does it not just muslims" but you, like others, seem to be keen to avoid some alarming conclusive figures to suggest there really is a problem here.

And to other posters - yesterday I was asked by Proper Tidy "Do you see Islam as more barbaric than other religions?"

I replied yes, and was called a "cunt" for doing so.

So will anyone now give me an example of a religion MORE barbaric than islam?

Or are people too scared to address the issues at hand?

 

[Stoat Boy]

A Muslim pointed out to me yesterday that the men who have carried out this systamatic abuse come from a culture in which their own personal lives have been 'controlled' by others from their childhood and that its possible, whilst not being excusable, that if English people lived in a world in which they were not only promised in marriage to others before they went to School but that there was every likelihood that the person they were being expected to marry was their own cousin that maybe they would grow up with a fucked up attitude towards controlling the personal lives of others.

No specific culture comes out of this one with any credit.

 

[pk]

A Muslim pointed out to me yesterday that the men who have carried out this systamatic abuse come from a culture in which their own personal lives have been 'controlled' by others from their childhood and that its possible, whilst not being excusable, that if English people lived in a world in which they were not only promised in marriage to others before they went to School but that there was every likelihood that the person they were being expected to marry was their own cousin that maybe they would grow up with a fucked up attitude towards controlling the personal lives of others.

No specific culture comes out of this one with any credit.

So in other words - the strictness of their culture is to blame for the abuses, in a similar manner to the strict abstinence rules imposed upon Catholic priests predisposes them to abuse boys?

I fail to see how UK culture is somehow culpable, other than the failings leading to these vulnerable girls being left on the streets to fend for themselves at a young age.

In the advance of the multicultural age and welcoming arms of our sceptered isle, it is my view that we prefer to turn away from serious mismatches in cultural attitudes, certainly towards women, so as not to offend our ethnic communities. In doing so we enable these child rapes.

I would expect a lot more to be reported now that the silence has been shattered - the question is do we just block our ears and change the subject (much like RingDing is trying to do) or do we accept there may be a real problem and address it for what it is?

 

[hipipol]

I cant see what evidence there is for the Koran encouraging the molestation of children. It does accept the prevailing mores of its first adherents in 7thC Arabia - something we would not be happy with today - but those behaviours were pretty widespread at the time. Jinnah, the "Founder" of Pakistan, did not think they would prevail once the Colonial rule of the Brits was removed, seems he was a bit wrong about that.
While we're on about grooming and explotation, anyone remeber this?
'The worst of the 150 or so allegations of misconduct--some of them captured on videotape--include pedophilia, rape, and prostitution. While a U.N. investigation into the scandal continues, the organization has just suspended two more peacekeepers in neighboring Burundi over similar charges. The revelations come three years after another U.N. report found "widespread" evidence of sexual abuse of West African refugees.'
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/081zxelz.asp
In this case the victims were all African, the abusers mainly white, or to be more specific, French (Including one senior nonce the French govt whisked back to Paris and refused to have prosecuted, despite having all his abuse videos!!)
Its got sod all to do commands from deranged claw handed clerics, much more to do with power and the mutual antipathy between communities who view each other with suspicion and distrust. Much easier to target what you already dislike - people rarely attack things they hold in high esteem

 

[pk]

I cant see what evidence there is for the Koran encouraging the molestation of children. It does accept the prevailing mores of its first adherents in 7thC Arabia - something we would not be happy with today - but those behaviours were pretty widespread at the time. Jinnah, the "Founder" of Pakistan, did not think they would prevail once the Colonial rule of the Brits was removed, seems he was a bit wrong about that.

Well with this I agree - and this is why the EDL type cunts who bang on about the muslim prophet being a pedophile are a joke - King Æthebald of Mercia was punished for numerous reasons, including violating holy nuns that were virgins consecrated to God, and accounts of anglo saxons raping children and taking them as slaves are well documented. All happened at roughly the same time - in the dark ages.

While we're on about grooming and explotation, anyone remember this?
'The worst of the 150 or so allegations of misconduct--some of them captured on videotape--include pedophilia, rape, and prostitution. While a U.N. investigation into the scandal continues, the organization has just suspended two more peacekeepers in neighboring Burundi over similar charges. The revelations come three years after another U.N. report found "widespread" evidence of sexual abuse of West African refugees.'
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/081zxelz.asp
In this case the victims were all African, the abusers mainly white, or to be more specific, French (Including one senior nonce the French govt whisked back to Paris and refused to have prosecuted, despite having all his abuse videos!!)
Its got sod all to do commands from deranged claw handed clerics, much more to do with power and the mutual antipathy between communities who view each other with suspicion and distrust. Much easier to target what you already dislike - people rarely attack things they hold in high esteem

Your example is a good one, and exposes a nasty racial element to the crime.

Seems to be a similarly one way street in these UK cases though - you won't find gangs of UK British white men grooming muslim girls for abuse.

Therein lies the animosity - that UK girls are seen as fair game. "Easy meat" to put it in Straw's distasteful terms... though he merely repeated the comments from his regional police chief.

The reports from the victims that they were racially abused during their ordeals reveals a far more sinister aspect to this type of crime than many are prepared to face up to.

 

[pk]

Here we go again (presuming nobody has already linked to this)

Link

Be interesting if these lads were subject to punishment according to Sharia law...

Wa'il ibn Hujr: When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. …..he said: Stone him to death”.[viii] This Hadis is the base of the Sharia law: - The rapist will be punished to death if force on the victim is proven.

Of course in Sharia the victims would need to provide four "reliable" witnesses - i.e. men - who could confirm their allegations.

In Pakistan, under the Zina ordinance, girls as young as twelve have been prosecuted for having extra-marital intercourse under circumstances that would previously have mandated statutory rape charges against their assailant.

(A) "Proof of Zina (adultery) or Zina Bil-Jabr (rape) liable to Hadd shall be one of the following:

(a) The accused makes confession, or

(b) There are at least four Muslim adult male witnesses”[x]

(B) "Proof of adultery or rape liable to Hadd shall be one of the following:

(a) The accused makes confession, or

(b) There are at least four Muslim adult male witnesses.”[xi]

(C) “Punishment will take place when Zina or rape has been proved by witness.”[xii]

(D) Sharia Law rejects the witness of women in Hudood cases.[xiii]

(E) “The evidence of women is originally inadmissible on account of their weakness of understanding, want of memory and incapacity of governing.”[xiv]

http://www.ahl-alquran.com/English/show_article.php?main_id=6157

http://news.lawreader.com/?p=457

 

[DrRingDing]

Are we ready to have a watch of the report on Newsnight regarding this matter??

A very telling piece with inteviews with a charity that works with young victims of sexual abuse and also the filth on the frontline of investigating sexual assault.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00xggg1/Newsnight_10_01_2011/

It starts 30 mins in.

pk, blinkers at the ready!

 

[pk]

Are we ready to have a watch of the report on Newsnight regarding this matter??

A very telling piece with inteviews with a charity that works with young victims of sexual abuse and also the filth on the frontline of investigating sexual assault.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00xggg1/Newsnight_10_01_2011/

It starts 30 mins in.

pk, blinkers at the ready!

I'll watch that.

In return you can watch this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00xh4lq/Newsnight_07_01_2011/

Especially the bit where the victims allege racial abuse during their ordeal.

Don't be weaselling out of it will you? The comments in the first 5 minutes alone support what I've been maintaining.

 

[pk]

Are we ready to have a watch of the report on Newsnight regarding this matter??

A very telling piece with inteviews with a charity that works with young victims of sexual abuse and also the filth on the frontline of investigating sexual assault.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00xggg1/Newsnight_10_01_2011/

It starts 30 mins in.

pk, blinkers at the ready!

OK, so I watched it. What of it? Nothing we didn't already know.

 

[DrRingDing]

You really have no humility. How tedious. That coke really fucked with your ego.

 

[pk]

You really have no humility. How tedious. That coke really fucked with your ego.

You could try asking which aspect I am supposed to have watched that miraculously proves you right and me wrong.

But you won't. You're so hell-bent on saving what little dignity you have left after being torn a new arsehole here.

How about YOU comment on the clearly racially motivated attacks on the episode of Newsnight I linked to - or did you not watch it?

Ad hominem attacks regarding cocaine use are ridiculous considering I am not a cocaine user.
I am however well aware of your various mental illnesses, you have documented them well over the years including back when you were called DoUsAFavour.
So be careful throwing around accusations of being fucked in the head.

Any chance you could stick to the thread topic, or is that too much to ask?

 

[DrRingDing]

So you agree there's not a disproportionate level of rape coming from people with a Pakistani background?

Or are you still too self-righteous to hold your hand up?

 

[DrRingDing]

pk earlier today.....

 

[pk]

So you agree there's not a disproportionate level of rape coming from people with a Pakistani background?

Or are you still too self-righteous to hold your hand up?

No I do not agree, and if you have watched the Panorama video I linked to, you would draw similar conclusions unless blinkered.

Tell you what, if your diazepam addled brain is finding a contextual question too hard to handle, how about you find the time code in the video that supposedly backs up your assertions.

In the meantime I'll maintain my own stance - that the STREET GROOMING OF CHILDREN FOR RAPE IS DISPROPORTIONATELY CARRIED OUT BY MUSLIM MEN.