Weasel Straw strikes again (Pakistani men in Britain see white girls as "easy meat")

[ericjarvis]

Me too.

Anyone here have any dıfferent personal experıence (as opposed to what they hear from press and polıtıcıans)?

I have a different personal experience. I've met men whose attitude to women completely stinks from just about every religion, ethnicity, nation, and what have you. I've encountered Catholics from all over the world who defend their church protecting paedophile priests. I've heard African people defend female circumcision on the grounds that women are not supposed to enjoy sex. I've heard a university rugby club forcibly stripping women in a bar described as harmless youthful high spirits. And yes, I have also encountered British Asians who claim that white British women are all sluts who corrupt fine upstanding Muslim men. All attitudes that are totally disgusting. All absolutely convinced that any fault must lie with people other than themselves.

 

[ericjarvis]

I don't thınk anyone on thıs thread ıs a racıst.

We also need to remember the long hıstory of thıs ıssue's exploıtatıon by racısts. Thınk of how Amerıcan black men were supposed to seduce whıte women ın varıous coercıve ways, and the manner ın whıch that was used by the KKK. That doesn't mean ıt dıdn't happen. But ıt was wrong then to call that a problem wıth the ''black communıty'' and ıt's wrong now to call thıs a problem wıth the ''Muslım communıty.''

I don't thınk anyone on thıs thread ıs a racıst.

I completely agree with phildwyer. I must be a lot more stoned than I thought.

 

[Treacle Toes]

The problem is men treating women as nothing more than sex objects. It doesn't matter who is doing it. It's just plain wrong whether it's a gang of Pakistani youths in the north of England, a gang of Eastern European pimps in the south of England, or a university rugby club in the midlands. Unless the basic attitude is the primary target of criticism it lets too many people off the hook.

QFT.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

spoke too soon. Theire have been campaigns against street grooming, kerb crawling and the general behaviour of younmg men involved in this. As for Muslim communities not wanting to upset the applecart this is bollocks as witnesses in court cases have included muslims.

As for the assertion that Muslim communities ( what ever they are, its a bit like talking about the Christian community or the Catholic community) in the news last night there were at least three examples of where muslim/faith based organsiations were seen to attempting to address this issue .

Its one thing to identify the issue that some asian youth specifically target vulnerable young women as a way of achieving sex and power beacsues they percieve them to be easy and feel that they may be able to rationalise their actions , its entirely another to paint some mythical one dimensuionsal 'muslim' community that is a brick wall of silence and colludes with this.

I agree with this post.

Also what the fuck does it mean to talk about muslim, white, catholic, jewish or any other community as if they are one block of people, it's complete and utter bollocks. In turn what does it mean to say that this made up community should do something about it? As a white person should I feel responsible if a gang of white people somewhere decide to be a bunch of scum bags? It's total nonsense. Should the so called catholic community have been held responsible for IRA pub bombings?

Unfortunately there is deeply sexist and misogynistic views in all cultures from what I can see. Should white British "communities" be held responsible for all the white men who go out to Thailand, Cambodia and all the other countries who abuse women?

There are men from every culture I can think of who see "their women" as better than all the rest, it's hardly unique. Jack Straw is a cynical fuckwit and will do absolutely nothing to change any of the problems he mentions, and his reactionary politics in government and his pandering to nonsense liberal multiculturalism and racism have made things worse.

 

[TopCat]

I'm the victim here! If I think it's bigotry, it's bigotry.

Doh!

 

[_angel_]

A community representative on the radio this morning actually suggested it was the responsibility of the girls parents to protect them and while I believe this is nothing to do with Islam its got a lot to do with the backward culture present in these Pakistani communities that foster extreme mysoganistic views in their young men and the more the liberal media stick their heads in the sand the more likely the problem won't be resolved.

I saw comments like this on the Guardian website. Lets just take the issue of race/ religion out of here, and basically you are agreeing with the idea that if a girl or woman is out somewhere alone, she is more or less fair game. It's not down to the men to moderate their behaviour, it's down to girls and women to do it.
Depressing.

 

[_angel_]

I agree with this post.

Also what the fuck does it mean to talk about muslim, white, catholic, jewish or any other community as if they are one block of people, it's complete and utter bollocks. In turn what does it mean to say that this made up community should do something about it? As a white person should I feel responsible if a gang of white people somewhere decide to be a bunch of scum bags? It's total nonsense. Should the so called catholic community have been held responsible for IRA pub bombings?

Unfortunately there is deeply sexist and misogynistic views in all cultures from what I can see. Should white British "communities" be held responsible for all the white men who go out to Thailand, Cambodia and all the other countries who abuse women?

There are men from every culture I can think of who see "their women" as better than all the rest, it's hardly unique. Jack Straw is a cynical fuckwit and will do absolutely nothing to change any of the problems he mentions, and his reactionary politics in government and his pandering to nonsense liberal multiculturalism and racism have made things worse.

God forbid I don't want to be defending Jack Straw, but I really don't think at any point he said that it was 'all' or even 'most' men from a Pakistani background doing this, just a small number.

 

[The39thStep]

I'll take your word for it, from an Istanbul perspective.

But I disagree with you in regards to the nature of Islam.

---
From Wiki:
The Qur'an and the hadith see slavery as an exceptional condition that can be entered into under certain limited circumstances.
Only children of slaves or non-Muslim prisoners of war could become slaves, never a freeborn Muslim.
---
This in my view can easily be used as justification for the behaviour of these six men. It's an extreme example, but the get-out clause of an historically justified perspective has its role here. All good fodder for debate either way.

This is where your arguement falls down kid, quoting the Koran as a way of explaining this behaviour is just toss. Do you really feel that these predators seek some sort of religoius justification for what they do? The idea that all asian youth with parents from Pakistan hold the Koran in such respect is absolute bollocks.

These are lads who see driving around coked up in a flash car impressing naive girls with alcohol , fags and a load of lies about how much money they have and who they know as a way of getting sex . They are able to have a power relationship based on abuse that they couldn't not with non vulnerable women . Its not some religious crusade and you won't find anyone quoting the Koran in their defence at court or in their cell.

 

[The39thStep]

Excellent, about time.

This thread is part of the solution. Dilute the nastiness and develop a heightened sense of understanding.

What is acceptable within the bounds of personal faith and law, and what is not.

To discuss and debate ideas is healthy, to lay down absolute laws is to be a fascist.

Nobody here of all places apart from the obvious ogres will be wanting to reject the well-established fruits of Islamic culture in the UK.

The good stuff that makes our nation the safe haven for those who need it.

Yet our traditional and beloved hospitality must never be compromised, and nor must it be abused.

I'm bowing out of this thread now, made my point, in danger of over-egging the cake.

Been nice though. Surprisingly civil.

The usual drug fuelled tosh then.

 

[Dr Jon]

I'm not sure if this is just a Pakistani problem, more a symptom of what happens in cultures that missed out on the women's lib and sexual revolutions we've had in the developed world.

You see this in India too, where white female tourists are groped and harassed by opportunist males.
There are a number of factors at play here, most notably the conservative culture which prohibits relationships / sex before (arranged) marriage. Also that the only experience many Asian males have of white women is from western porn. I was amazed to discover a little café in the wilds of rural India, which was screening hard-core porn in the back-room bar. The audience might be forgiven for thinking that all white women will have spontaneous sex with anyone. White women are at best perceived as being sexually available, unlike most Indian women.

Things are changing, albeit slowly. A Hindu mate in Bangalore was disowned by his family for having 'relations' with a Christian girl and marrying her when she became pregnant. Once their daughter was born it was happy families once again, but it was really difficult for them before that.

I think sex in conservative Asian cultures is much like forbidden fruit anywhere: it gets taken over / monopolised by dealers in illicit goods, who are dodgy characters at best.

 

[_angel_]

To be fair I grew up in a white working class culture that looked down on girls who went out with non-whites to the extent that if a girl had been involved with a non-white in the past there was an expectation that you would not get involved with her afterwards. Looking back on it it was some shameful shit.

For me though the issue that is not really being addressed is the strata of our society that these poor girls are coming from. I would be willing to bet that almost all of them are products of broken homes, backgrounds in which the primary income has always been from state and so on.

Essentially those of us on the right have tended to dismiss them as just being feckless and workshy whilst the left have not really had the courage to face up the reality and complexities of the situation which is a mine-field no matter what we might all think.

I feel that there is a lot to be learnt from what has been going on from every section of modern British society and none of us come out of this covered in anything other than something very smelly and unpleasant.

Why are we meant to be scrutinising the victims and their families and not the perpetrators??

 

[pk]

This is where your arguement falls down kid, quoting the Koran as a way of explaining this behaviour is just toss.

Not my argument.

Just pointing out how easy it is to justify such actions, if you bend the book to suit your aims.

Certainly there's a significance in these men electing to wear traditional garb and grow their beards long as soon as they were arrested.

If you're denying the sense of entitlement these men felt towards non-muslim girls (of 13 and probably younger) then you've missed the point.

 

[pk]

The usual drug fuelled tosh then.

Whatever.

 

[rover07]

Not my argument.

Just pointing out how easy it is to justify such actions, if you bend the book to suit your aims.

Certainly there's a significance in these men electing to wear traditional garb and grow their beards long as soon as they were arrested.

If you're denying the sense of entitlement these men felt towards non-muslim girls (of 13 and probably younger) then you've missed the point.

No he's bang on. You were claiming the reason why this gang were targeting young women was because they are muslims.

 

[smokedout]

Certainly there's a significance in these men electing to wear traditional garb and grow their beards long as soon as they were arrested.

come on pk are you that naive

 

[Treacle Toes]

I'm not sure if this is just a Pakistani problem, more a symptom of what happens in cultures that missed out on the women's lib and sexual revolutions we've had in the developed world.

Yeah, 'we' are really in a position to look down our noses eh at 'them' aren't we? Let's just ignore the fact that men and women from the 'developed world' (whatever that is supposed to mean) appear to make up the majority of 'sex tourists' worldwide. I think it's problematic to talk about 'women's lib and sexual revolutions' when 'we' are still so involved in the sexual exploition and abuse of young women/men both here and elsewhere.

 

[_angel_]

come on pk are you that naive

Hows your mate porno steve?

 

[smokedout]

?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Why are we meant to be scrutinising the victims and their families and not the perpetrators??

Surely we should be equally interested in who is doing it and why, as well as who it is being done to and why? I don't think it is 'scrutinising' victims to look at why they are so vulnerable to this sort of thing. That's not about blaming the victim, that's about exploring and understanding why they become 'victims'.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

God forbid I don't want to be defending Jack Straw, but I really don't think at any point he said that it was 'all' or even 'most' men from a Pakistani background doing this, just a small number.

No he didn't and that's not my point. He said that the pakistani community should take up the problem. But why isn't a problem for all of society and surely any solution should involve society at large? What does he want people to do, raise some cash at the local mosques to hire private detectives? As there is no such thing as a single pakistani community it is a nonsense, especially, as has been pointed out, clearly most people from a pakistani background don't agree with this behaviour and would condemn it. Anymore than the "white community" should be told to do something about white men going out to Thailand and Cambodia. It's a problem for society at large.

It's not the first time Straw has brought up this kind of thing, he raised the nonsense about asking women to take off their veil, as if there weren't more pressing problems in his constituency (less than 1% of muslim wear a veil). It's just head line grabbing rubbish and Straw as his policies made things worse when he was in government to be honest I don't give a shit what he has to say.

 

[phildwyer]

It's not hard to fınd the reason for Straw's reactıonary outburst. We are after all at war wıth two Islamıc natıons. The fırst task of a polıtıcıan durıng wartıme ıs to demonıze the enemy.

That's my take on the matter.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

This is where your arguement falls down kid, quoting the Koran as a way of explaining this behaviour is just toss. Do you really feel that these predators seek some sort of religoius justification for what they do? The idea that all asian youth with parents from Pakistan hold the Koran in such respect is absolute bollocks.

These are lads who see driving around coked up in a flash car impressing naive girls with alcohol , fags and a load of lies about how much money they have and who they know as a way of getting sex . They are able to have a power relationship based on abuse that they couldn't not with non vulnerable women . Its not some religious crusade and you won't find anyone quoting the Koran in their defence at court or in their cell.

Exactly, the idea that they could use the koran to justify their behaviour is nonsense.

 

[phildwyer]

I completely agree with phildwyer. I must be a lot more stoned than I thought.

I'll have two of what he's drınkıng.

 

[One_Stop_Shop]

I'm not sure if this is just a Pakistani problem, more a symptom of what happens in cultures that missed out on the women's lib and sexual revolutions we've had in the developed world.

You see this in India too, where white female tourists are groped and harassed by opportunist males.

What about if you go to Bangkok? Who is groping women and under aged women there? Look at the attitudes to rape in this country with the percentage of people who think that women who have had a drink or wear short skirts are somehow partly responsible for getting raped. I'm not saying that sexism and misogyny aren't worse in some countries than others but it's still rife here and any other country I can think of.

 

[_angel_]

Surely we should be equally interested in who is doing it and why, as well as who it is being done to and why? I don't think it is 'scrutinising' victims to look at why they are so vulnerable to this sort of thing. That's not about blaming the victim, that's about exploring and understanding why they become 'victims'.

Yes but I think it was implicit in the post I quoted, that somehow it was the families of the victims fault.

 

[IC3D]

I saw comments like this on the Guardian website. Lets just take the issue of race/ religion out of here, and basically you are agreeing with the idea that if a girl or woman is out somewhere alone, she is more or less fair game. It's not down to the men to moderate their behaviour, it's down to girls and women to do it.
Depressing.

Don't know how you came to the conclusion from my post, I was saying the Ramadan spokesman at the end of his fairly balanced statement in his last comment said we (sic) should also look at why these girls were not protected by their families. I thought it undermided the rest of his statement really having a subtle little dig at the victims family at the end.

 

[_angel_]

Don't know how you came to the conclusion from my post, I was saying the Ramadan spokesman at the end of his fairly balanced statement in his last comment said we (sic) should also look at why these girls were not protected by their families. I thought it undermided the rest of his statement really having a subtle little dig at the victims family at the end.

I wasn't suggesting that you agreed with that, by the way!

 

[Treacle Toes]

Don't know how you came to the conclusion from my post, I was saying the Ramadan spokesman at the end of his fairly balanced statement in his last comment said we (sic) should also look at why these girls were not protected by their families. I thought it undermided the rest of his statement really having a subtle little dig at the victims family at the end.

It could have been a 'dig', I don't know, I am not him. But I do think that the question asked is a valid one. Any young person who is vulnerable in this way needs protecting, I think it is important to look at why they are not.

 

[IC3D]

It could have been a 'dig', I don't know, I am not him. But I do think that the question asked is a valid one. Any young person who is vulnerable in this way needs protecting, I think it is important to look at why they are not.

Really the Pakistani lads can't help themselves so we should blame the sexy 12 year olds. I understand we should help vunerable youth but in the context of this the rapists should feel the pressure on not have anyone supporting their opinion that anyone is asking for it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Really the Pakistani lads can't help themselves so we should blame the sexy 12 year olds.

Eh? Who has said this?

I understand we should help vunerable youth but in the context of this the rapists should feel the pressure on not have anyone supporting their opinion that anyone is asking for it.

Again, who has said the 'victims' were asking for it? Exploing what factors leave young people vulnerable is definately not suggesting that they are 'responsible'. Nobody is letting the perpetrators off the hook here.