'Vigilantes against Swine Flu Vaccine' hit Birmingham hospitals!

[chazegee]

Isn't Rumsfeld on the Tammy flue board of directors.
This little virus just made him a lot of wedge.

 

[Dandred]

el jefe posting

christ, this place really is fucked, isn't it?

If your going to flounce and then come back and complain about how bad it is here, what is the point of flouncing?

Such a twat you are.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, but seasonal flu tends to kill the elderly with serious pre-existing medical problems, about 90% of seasonal flu deaths are in the over 65s.

Swine flu is the opposite, 90% of deaths are under 65’s, many without pre-existing medical problems, and it’s a particular problem with children.

There's a big different there.

There's also the unfortunate fact that in the modern world autumn/winter weather produces the sort of conditions that some infections (viral or bacterial) love: pockets of warmth and humidity that aren't aired often enough.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Nail on head.

A good example of the danger of Jazzz's posts is here.

He has it in his head that the swine flu vaccine is more dangerous than swine flu, he's on a mission to try to stop people having the vaccine despite the possible serious health problems that could develop, up to and including death, and he will post any old bollocks to support his agenda.

He claimed, with some joy, that the vaccine had killed four people in Sweden in order to scare people, the claim was false, the claim was a total lie, and the claim was absolute ballshit.

If he’s not picked-up on stuff like that he will continue to repeat it and causal readers may actually start to believe it, make no mistake to allow fruitloons to get away with posting such nonsense is dangerous – it leads to the lunatics taking over the asylum.

There’s plenty of other examples.

Yeah, but according to at least one happy camper, drawing jazzz's attention to the poor quality of his ouvre in any kind of robust way is "bullying", at least when I do it.
Not that I'm bothered. I'd rather be considered a bully than let that sort of pseudo-scientific shite stand.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The problem is though, that the man is obviously a bit fucked in the head. If we all ganged up on the nutter in the real world it would look a bit bad. But because it's on the internet it's not so obvious that we are prodding the nutter for our own amusement. He loves it though. We just exacerbate his grandiose delusions.

He's not a nutter.
Like (unfortunately, in my opinion) millions of other people he's a generally rational person with a blind-spot when it comes to "alternative" narratives. I may call him a "loonspud", but I do so in the context of his belief being irrational, rather than a by-product of insanity.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not to mention the links with the far right.

There is that, insofar as the sort of historical revisionism some CTers indulge in does give elements of the far-right fuel for their judaeophobia.

 

[Corax]

It's quite obvious really. MMR was getting too much attention, so that had to remove the mind control drugs from that and have put them into the swine flu vaccine instead.

 

[goldenecitrone]

He's not a nutter.
Like (unfortunately, in my opinion) millions of other people he's a generally rational person with a blind-spot when it comes to "alternative" narratives. I may call him a "loonspud", but I do so in the context of his belief being irrational, rather than a by-product of insanity.

Anyone who takes David Icke seriously is a nutter in my book. But I know what you mean.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Have you ever talked to someone with psychosis, who really thinks the government have put chips in their brain and Simon Cowell is sending messages through the tv? You would immediately recognise the futility of arguing with such a person. There is no way you could convince them that you were right and they were wrong. Why is it different on the internet?

I did a fair bit of research (but never got round to writing it up ) about CTs and the sort of people who take them up, back in the '90s, and very few of the "believers" I talked with were psychotic.
A lot of them, however, were religious, generally Protestants, and often (but by no means always) members of "evangelical" churches who bought into the whole judaeophobia, anti-socialism and anti-science schtick. I'd say that often, in my opinion, they were self-deluding, but as part of an effort to belong to an "in-group", the more exclusive the better.

 

[Blagsta]

There is that, insofar as the sort of historical revisionism some CTers indulge in does give elements of the far-right fuel for their judaeophobia.

It's more than that. It's the promotion of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and other loony far right stuff that very often goes hand in hand with Jazzz's stuff.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I'd say that often, in my opinion, they were self-deluding, but as part of an effort to belong to an "in-group", the more exclusive the better.

That sounds like narcissistic personality disorder. Not a 'treatable' form of mental health disorder in so much as pumping them full of drugs wouldn't alleviate any of the social dysfunction.

 

[Blagsta]

He's not a nutter.
Like (unfortunately, in my opinion) millions of other people he's a generally rational person with a blind-spot when it comes to "alternative" narratives. I may call him a "loonspud", but I do so in the context of his belief being irrational, rather than a by-product of insanity.

I think his beliefs serve an emotional purpose, something to do with feeling special.

 

[claphamboy]

The problem is though, that the man is obviously a bit fucked in the head. If we all ganged up on the nutter in the real world it would look a bit bad. But because it's on the internet it's not so obvious that we are prodding the nutter for our own amusement. He loves it though. We just exacerbate his grandiose delusions.

Yes, sadly, I have encountered people with psychosis IRL and you’re right it is easy to immediately recognise the pointlessness of arguing, but there’s a certain level of body language that comes into play, which doesn’t come across on the internet.

Also, and far more importantly, they are not able to instantly quote what to a causal reader comes across as serious evidence to back-up their insane ramblings, there’s been plenty of occasions in the past when Jazzz has posted things that have actually appeared, even to me, as being possible. It’s not until you look into those specific claims or evidence that it becomes apparent that all is not what it seems.

An example - recently when he was claiming vaccines cause cancer he quoted what appeared to be a specialist in the field, who was the head of the International Institute of Cancer, or something similar, based at the British Cancer Hospital. To a casual reader that quote could easily be taken as fact, or at the very least carry a certain amount of weight in supporting Jazzz’s claim.

When I looked into this ‘doctor’, it turned out that he lived in the early 1900s, had been called out as a quack in the British Medical Journal (1911) and the BMJ had also carried a report on a case being found against him in 1937 for treating a cancer patient he had never met by post FFS! Therefore, that source could be discredited, even in the eyes of any casual reader.

I’ve never met anyone IRL with barking mad theories that have been able to back them up with what appears genuine evidence in the way that it can be done online, and that makes a very big different in how people are likely to react.

 

[claphamboy]

How many people on here have decided not to have the swine flu vaccine just because of what Jazz has posted?

Or, you could ask how many people would have decided against the swine flu vaccine having read stuff like 'deaths caused by vaccine' that Jazzz has posted, if it hadn't been shown to be total bollocks.

We will never know, but what we do know is that, sadly, people do get taken in by what they read on the internet in the same way as people are taken in by what they read in newspapers or see on TV.

It's willy waving - nothing more nothing less. There are people on here who I like, some of them in real life, and then I see them on a Jazz thread and I think so much less of them it's unreal. Of course people shoiuld feel free to disagree with what he posts but the way in which it's dne is like watching one of those fights where there's someone on the ground getting a kicking and passers by just join in. It's bullying, it's cowardly, it's hardly intelligent. If all you can come up with is gratuitous insults and dicking about with someone's username then I pity you

Most people seem to actively engage in the debate at first, trouble is Jazzz twists and turns things so much, ignores factual evidence from reliable sources that debunks his case, returns with a totally different angle and so it goes on and on. And this is repeated time and time again, it’s hardly surprising that on occasions people throw their arms up, give up the sensible debating and adopts the ‘point and laugh’ responses.

problem is if you hold extreme views on a subject and the vast majority disagree with them, you can bet your bottom dollar you’re going to get a reaction on a scale from heated debate to ridicule, as demonstrated by Nick Griffins appearance on Question Time, some will consider that bullying others will not.

 

[Jazzz]

yawn

the amazing thing is that when it comes to medical matters urban75's capacity for being sceptical and not simply accepting authority just flies out of the fucking window.

Through hard personal experience, I've come to realise that there is no industry which is less deserving of blind faith. I would say the same is true of madzone, which is why she drops in on these threads sometimes to point out that posters are behaving like jerks.

Which they are.

There's absolutely no need for discussions to turn into slanging matches. It's quite possible to disagree with someone without calling them insane, or otherwise insulting them, or pissing about with usernames.

I do it all the time.

 

[Blagsta]

lol

 

[Jazzz]

He claimed, with some joy, that the vaccine had killed four people in Sweden in order to scare people, the claim was false, the claim was a total lie, and the claim was absolute ballshit.

What the hell are you talking about, 'claimed with some joy?'

this is beyond the pale claphamboy.

Also, I love the way you link to your own post as an example of my work. Pathetic

 

[ViolentPanda]

How many people on here have decided not to have the swine flu vaccine just because of what Jazz has posted?

Do you think that anyone who was convinced by him would admit it?

And if I'd taken the advice of urban I still wouldn't be able to walk.

That's what you get for asking for medical advice on an internet board!

It's willy waving - nothing more nothing less.

Wrong.
You may enjoy assuming it is "willy-waving", but I'd argue that "willy-waving" doesn't address the harm that propagating poor information can do, as many of the posts critical of jazzz do.

There are people on here who I like, some of them in real life, and then I see them on a Jazz thread and I think so much less of them it's unreal. Of course people shoiuld feel free to disagree with what he posts but the way in which it's dne is like watching one of those fights where there's someone on the ground getting a kicking and passers by just join in. It's bullying, it's cowardly, it's hardly intelligent. If all you can come up with is gratuitous insults and dicking about with someone's username then I pity you

Except, of course, that it's hardly only "gratuitous insults and dicking about with someone's username" that's gone on. Mind you, admitting that wouldn't play well with the line you're currently spieling, so...

 

[madzone]

Do you think that anyone who was convinced by him would admit it?

That's what you get for asking for medical advice on an internet board!

Wrong.
You may enjoy assuming it is "willy-waving", but I'd argue that "willy-waving" doesn't address the harm that propagating poor information can do, as many of the posts critical of jazzz do.

Except, of course, that it's hardly only "gratuitous insults and dicking about with someone's username" that's gone on. Mind you, admitting that wouldn't play well with the line you're currently spieling, so...

You're reading much more into my words than is actually there

 

[Jazzz]

That's what you get for asking for medical advice on an internet board!

Exactly, she got her life back.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Anyone who takes David Icke seriously is a nutter in my book. But I know what you mean.

He was a shite goalie, and his CT stuff is mostly badly-written repackaging of other people's work. Taking him seriously marks you out as uber-gullible rather than mad!

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's more than that. It's the promotion of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and other loony far right stuff that very often goes hand in hand with Jazzz's stuff.

That doesn't, to be fair, mean that he endorses it.
I do find it nauseating, though, that someone who claims Jewish ancestry can give credence to some of this stuff, or talk up someone like Kollerstrom.

 

[Blagsta]

That doesn't, to be fair, mean that he endorses it.
I do find it nauseating, though, that someone who claims Jewish ancestry can give credence to some of this stuff, or talk up someone like Kollerstrom.

No, but despite knowing what it is, he still promotes it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think his beliefs serve an emotional purpose, something to do with feeling special.

I'd agree, as that's the case with many belief systems. The great thing about CTs (for the believers, anyway) is that it's a "movable feast" insofar as if one element of your belief system is demolished, you can incorporate the demolition as an example of you being a part of a persecuted minority and feel even more special about yourself.

 

[longdog]

yawn

the amazing thing is that when it comes to medical matters urban75's capacity for being sceptical and not simply accepting authority just flies out of the fucking window.

Bollocks.

Coming from somebody with an almost unbroken history of quoting disreputable sources as authorities that's a quite spectacular case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[Jazzz]

I can't believe you guys are desperately trying to crowbar in race issues into vaccines.

They are pushed on all of us, whether we are black, Jewish, Muslim, Amish, left, right, etc.

I can't believe people are still going on about someone I said I was having nothing to do with years ago. But that's urban75 I guess.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Bollocks.

Coming from somebody with an almost unbroken history of quoting disreputable sources as authorities that's a quite spectacular case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Not to mention drinking enough colloidal silver to give yourself the imagined symptoms of MS.

 

[Jazzz]

Bollocks.

Coming from somebody with an almost unbroken history of quoting disreputable sources as authorities that's a quite spectacular case of the pot calling the kettle black.

longdog

One thing you will never hear me say is this:

"This person is an authority and you must therefore believe what he says"

The whole point is that we have to make up our own minds.

 

[Blagsta]

I can't believe you guys are desperately trying to crowbar in race issues into vaccines.

They are pushed on all of us, whether we are black, Jewish, Muslim, Amish, left, right, etc.

I can't believe people are still going on about someone I said I was having nothing to do with years ago. But that's urban75 I guess.

Stop linking to sites pushing racist lies then.

 

[claphamboy]

yawn
the amazing thing is that when it comes to medical matters urban75's capacity for being sceptical and not simply accepting authority just flies out of the fucking window.

Poppycock. There's plenty of sceptical posters, it's just they're not gullible enough to swallow any old codswallop that you post.

What the hell are you talking about, 'claimed with some joy?'

That is certainly how your post came across, a sort of 'oh look I was right all the time.'

Also, I love the way you link to your own post as an example of my work. Pathetic

No, if anything it was laziness, as it was to hand, being that it was on this thread and saved me searching for your ridiculous original claim. More importantly within my post was a link to a report basically saying 'don't be stupid and claim unconnected deaths are caused by the vaccine', which, of course, is what you did.