'Vigilantes against Swine Flu Vaccine' hit Birmingham hospitals!

[ViolentPanda]

You would say "harmful", personally I'm content with listening to as broad a spectrum of opinion as possible, and then forming a view. Thanks though.

Good for you.
Your stance doesn't invalidate the fact that "harmful loonspud bullshit" does get propagated, though, because for every person with a similar position to that which you profess, there's someone who might not have the time or the tools to do so.
I'd much rather they weren't harmed by that, and the best way I can see of doing that is by calling a loonspud a loonspud, especially when the loonspud has such a particularly nauseating provenance.

The problem with you is you insist on trying to bully people, often through stigmatisation. And that's a whole lot worse than what Jazzz does.

Thanks for bringing your personal issues to the debate.

 

[madzone]

Yes, I said that, didn't I?
Nice try, but you'll have to do better than that.

It isn't an issue of trust. It's about people being deceived by the presentation of pseudo-science as science. Ever looked at the way a lot of this stuff is presented? Just like academic papers: footnotes, citations, the works, so people "buy" it.
Look beyond the surface and a lot of the citations are either the author referencing their own previous work, or referencing like-minded people. Very little referencing of properly peer-reviewed material.
What I don't trust is people who're happy to go to such lengths to deceive Joe and Josephine Public to promote their agenda(s).

Sorry if that's a bit rational and non-new age for you, but there it is.

Why so angry with me? In essence you and all the other Jazz baiters/haters think you know better than the majority of people who read his opinions. Yes, I've read a lot of the same sort of stuff that Jazz posts about, of course I have. And to be honest the science purists have been just as harmful as Jazz in my own personal circumstance (although my only experince of listening to Jazz was very beneficial) It's nothing to do with being 'New Age', it's to do with having an open mind but being intelligent enough to work out what's bollocks.

I really don't understand the vitriol.

 

[madzone]

That just makes you an unquestioning supporter of current thinking. Like it won't change in 3 or 5 years - doh! you know what, that stuff we published a couple of years ago, well . . . we may have been a little off the mark. Never happens. Much.

Just what I wanted to say

 

[London_Calling]

Thanks for bringing your personal issues to the debate.

Like you haven't been told 100 times before about your inclination to try and bully.

Just like scepticism it washes over you.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That just makes you an unquestioning supporter of current thinking. Like it won't change in 3 or 5 years - doh! you know what, that stuff we published a couple of years ago, well . . . we may have been a little off the mark. Never happens. Much.

Please don't put words in my mouth. It makes you look foolish.
I'm well aware of the fact that the current state of knowledge is (and has always been) in flux, but guess what? That doesn't change the way that viruses function. It doesn't change the way that vaccines function. It doesn't change the fact that however much jazzz expresses doubt and insinuates, that he and his sources are incorrect

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the views of contrarians and sceptics that critical thinking and experience doesn't answer.

And we've been teaching critical thinking to pre-university students for how many years now?
That's right: We pretty much don't, and given that the majority of the population have never engaged in tertiary education, that leaves a lot of people out there to be gulled.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Like you haven't been told 100 times before about your inclination to try and bully.

Just like scepticism it washes over you.

Oh right. Now it's an "inclination to try and bully.

A few posts ago it was an "insistence".

Please make up your mind."

 

[London_Calling]

Not interested in any kind of debate with you, I'm not that fucking bored.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why so angry with me?

I'm not at all angry with you.

In essence you and all the other Jazz baiters/haters think you know better than the majority of people who read his opinions.

What I know, from the position of having a rather aged degree in "Biological Science", is that an awful lot of what jazzz has written about and linked to when discussing vaccines is unscientific crap dressed up to look like credible science.
So while I may not "know better than the majority of people who read his opinions", I do at least have an informed opinion.
You look at jazzz and might see someone who is putting out harmless "crank" views. I see someone cheer-leading the sort of pseudo-science that led to Tabo Mbeki condemning hundreds of thousands of his fellow South Africans to death, so I reserve my right to strongly disagree with him.

Yes, I've read a lot of the same sort of stuff that Jazz posts about, of course I have. And to be honest the science purists have been just as harmful as Jazz in my own personal circumstance (although my only experince of listening to Jazz was very beneficial)...

The difference is that with the "science purists" you can dissect their work and (usually after a long hard road, unfortunately) discredit them (as is gradually happening to the "ME is all in your head" brigade), whereas your pseudo-scientist just shifts the goal-posts. Again and again and again.

It's nothing to do with being 'New Age'...

So you deny being a crystal-wibbler, then?

...it's to do with having an open mind but being intelligent enough to work out what's bollocks.

And if you've never been given the tools to do that, either through experience or being educated as to how to think critically?

I really don't understand the vitriol.

I loathe the kind of stuff jazzz puts out because it's closely linked (in content and occasionally ideologically, although I categorically state that I don't believe, as some Urbanites appear to, that jazzz is an anti-Semite) with the sort of ideas that led to eugenics and all of its' consequences. If my arguing against him promoting that sort of stuff is seen as "vitriol" or "bullying", then so be it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Not interested in any kind of debate with you, I'm not that fucking bored.

 

[Callie]

Something's telling me to be a bit wary of the figures. Unless I'm much mistaken, there's no 'swabbing' or laboratory checks any more.

Get your flu diagnosis here

no wonder the figures have gone up

I don't think the majority of the general public are being swabbed for swine flu, its just not that practical but in patients in hospitals are having rapid PCR (Your pals invention ) testing for swine flu if they display symptoms. It's being treated like any other epidemic/outbreak situation within the hospital setting because people there are more vunerable.

PCR tests are really quite expensive hence limiting testing in the community I owuld guess and PCR is quite specific for one type of target so patients are essentially being double tested when they display symptoms because if it's not swine flu you need to know if its any other strain of flu or things like respiratory syncytial virus.

 

[madzone]

I don't think the majority of the general public are being swabbed for swine flu, its just not that practical but in patients in hospitals are having rapid PCR (Your pals invention ) testing for swine flu if they display symptoms. It's being treated like any other epidemic/outbreak situation within the hospital setting because people there are more vunerable.

PCR tests are really quite expensive hence limiting testing in the community I owuld guess and PCR is quite specific for one type of target so patients are essentially being double tested when they display symptoms because if it's not swine flu you need to know if its any other strain of flu or things like respiratory syncytial virus.

^^^^

And here is an example of how you can disagree with someone in an intelligent, INFORMED way.

It's not rocket surgery

 

[madzone]

I'm not at all angry with you.

What I know, from the position of having a rather aged degree in "Biological Science", is that an awful lot of what jazzz has written about and linked to when discussing vaccines is unscientific crap dressed up to look like credible science.
So while I may not "know better than the majority of people who read his opinions", I do at least have an informed opinion.
You look at jazzz and might see someone who is putting out harmless "crank" views. I see someone cheer-leading the sort of pseudo-science that led to Tabo Mbeki condemning hundreds of thousands of his fellow South Africans to death, so I reserve my right to strongly disagree with him.

The difference is that with the "science purists" you can dissect their work and (usually after a long hard road, unfortunately) discredit them (as is gradually happening to the "ME is all in your head" brigade), whereas your pseudo-scientist just shifts the goal-posts. Again and again and again.

So you deny being a crystal-wibbler, then?

And if you've never been given the tools to do that, either through experience or being educated as to how to think critically?

I loathe the kind of stuff jazzz puts out because it's closely linked (in content and occasionally ideologically, although I categorically state that I don't believe, as some Urbanites appear to, that jazzz is an anti-Semite) with the sort of ideas that led to eugenics and all of its' consequences. If my arguing against him promoting that sort of stuff is seen as "vitriol" or "bullying", then so be it.

I'll deal with you later

 

[stupid dogbot]

Well, the whining bastard known a jazzz is responsible for that, with his cry-babying.
Personally I reckon that letting a poster get away with posting harmful loonspud bullshit is worse than ribbing the daft cunt through a smiley inserted in his name, but obviously the mods have to carry out their threats or they'll look like impotent cunts.

Oh wait....

Amazing, innit.

Allow the fucking nutter to keep on posting the same completely fucking batshit mental rubbish, over and over and over and over and over. No worries, go right ahead.

But mess with someone's online ID? Insta-ban!

Your priorities are fucked, boys.

 

[durruti02]

Nah I'm taking 18 Vitamin D pills a day mate, I'm sorted for both.

have you tried homeopathy? i heard that works for Aids Swine Flu AND all cancers!!

 

[claphamboy]

Well the government here have stood down the threat saying it's not as bad as previously thought. Please also remember that seasonal flue kills just as many if not more people.
The true misreporting here comes from the mass media

Yes, but seasonal flu tends to kill the elderly with serious pre-existing medical problems, about 90% of seasonal flu deaths are in the over 65s.

Swine flu is the opposite, 90% of deaths are under 65’s, many without pre-existing medical problems, and it’s a particular problem with children.

There's a big different there.

 

[durruti02]

Me neither. It's one of the most pointless and unpleasant things that happens on urban.

he is promoting anti-scientific bollox that actually could end up with peoples kids dieing ... so it i think he deserves all he gets frankly

 

[durruti02]

That just makes you an unquestioning supporter of current thinking. Like it won't change in 3 or 5 years - doh! you know what, that stuff we published a couple of years ago, well . . . we may have been a little off the mark. Never happens. Much.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with the views of contrarians and sceptics that critical thinking and experience doesn't answer.

the differrence is here his opinions are potentially deadly

 

[claphamboy]

I'm not at all angry with you.

What I know, from the position of having a rather aged degree in "Biological Science", is that an awful lot of what jazzz has written about and linked to when discussing vaccines is unscientific crap dressed up to look like credible science.
So while I may not "know better than the majority of people who read his opinions", I do at least have an informed opinion.
You look at jazzz and might see someone who is putting out harmless "crank" views. I see someone cheer-leading the sort of pseudo-science that led to Tabo Mbeki condemning hundreds of thousands of his fellow South Africans to death, so I reserve my right to strongly disagree with him.

The difference is that with the "science purists" you can dissect their work and (usually after a long hard road, unfortunately) discredit them (as is gradually happening to the "ME is all in your head" brigade), whereas your pseudo-scientist just shifts the goal-posts. Again and again and again.

So you deny being a crystal-wibbler, then?

And if you've never been given the tools to do that, either through experience or being educated as to how to think critically?

I loathe the kind of stuff jazzz puts out because it's closely linked (in content and occasionally ideologically, although I categorically state that I don't believe, as some Urbanites appear to, that jazzz is an anti-Semite) with the sort of ideas that led to eugenics and all of its' consequences. If my arguing against him promoting that sort of stuff is seen as "vitriol" or "bullying", then so be it.

Nail on head.

A good example of the danger of Jazzz's posts is here.

He has it in his head that the swine flu vaccine is more dangerous than swine flu, he's on a mission to try to stop people having the vaccine despite the possible serious health problems that could develop, up to and including death, and he will post any old bollocks to support his agenda.

He claimed, with some joy, that the vaccine had killed four people in Sweden in order to scare people, the claim was false, the claim was a total lie, and the claim was absolute ballshit.

If he’s not picked-up on stuff like that he will continue to repeat it and causal readers may actually start to believe it, make no mistake to allow fruitloons to get away with posting such nonsense is dangerous – it leads to the lunatics taking over the asylum.

There’s plenty of other examples.

 

[durruti02]

Nail on head.

A good example of the danger of Jazzz's posts is here.

He has it in his head that the swine flu vaccine is more dangerous than swine flu, he's on a mission to try to stop people having the vaccine despite the possible serious health problems that could develop, up to and including death, and he will post any old bollocks to support his agenda.

He claimed, with some joy, that the vaccine had killed four people in Sweden in order to scare people, the claim was false, the claim was a total lie, and the claim was absolute ballshit.

If he’s not picked-up on stuff like that he will continue to repeat it and causal readers may actually start to believe it, make no mistake to allow fruitloons to get away with posting such nonsense is dangerous – it leads to the lunatics taking over the asylum.

There’s plenty of other examples.

yes

 

[goldenecitrone]

Nail on head.

A good example of the danger of Jazzz's posts is here.

He has it in his head that the swine flu vaccine is more dangerous than swine flu, he's on a mission to try to stop people having the vaccine despite the possible serious health problems that could develop, up to and including death, and he will post any old bollocks to support his agenda.

He claimed, with some joy, that the vaccine had killed four people in Sweden in order to scare people, the claim was false, the claim was a total lie, and the claim was absolute ballshit.

If he’s not picked-up on stuff like that he will continue to repeat it and causal readers may actually start to believe it, make no mistake to allow fruitloons to get away with posting such nonsense is dangerous – it leads to the lunatics taking over the asylum.

There’s plenty of other examples.

The problem is though, that the man is obviously a bit fucked in the head. If we all ganged up on the nutter in the real world it would look a bit bad. But because it's on the internet it's not so obvious that we are prodding the nutter for our own amusement. He loves it though. We just exacerbate his grandiose delusions.

 

[Blagsta]

I said "harmful", not "dangerous".
And it's "harmful" because it lulls people into thinking that loonspud bullshit somehow has the same validity as information gained through the application of the scientific method.
Truth is, though, that anyone can sit around and theorise in the way so many of jazzz's sources do, but if their theories don't stand up to examination via the scientific method then they're usually loonspud bullshit that can be harmful, and not (in the case of infections especially) just to people who believe this stuff.

Not to mention the links with the far right.

 

[claphamboy]

The problem is though, that the man is obviously a bit fucked in the head. If we all ganged up on the nutter in the real world it would look a bit bad. But because it's on the internet it's not so obvious that we are prodding the nutter for our own amusement. He loves it though. We just exacerbate his grandiose delusions.

I totally disagree with the suggestion that people are 'prodding' him, which implies people are trying to get a reaction from him, to get him to post more and more ridiculous crap. The opposite is true; people are reacting to the crap he posts, to expose it, in an attempt to stop it, they are not prodding him to post more.

I would, however, agree that there's something seriously wrong with him and he does need help, but that doesn't give him a licence to get away with posting the crap that he does.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I totally disagree with the suggestion that people are 'prodding' him, which implies people are trying to get a reaction from him, to get him to post more and more ridiculous crap. The opposite is true; people are reacting to the crap he posts, to expose it, in an attempt to stop it, they are not prodding him to post more.

Have you ever talked to someone with psychosis, who really thinks the government have put chips in their brain and Simon Cowell is sending messages through the tv? You would immediately recognise the futility of arguing with such a person. There is no way you could convince them that you were right and they were wrong. Why is it different on the internet?

 

[madzone]

How many people on here have decided not to have the swine flu vaccine just because of what Jazz has posted?

And if I'd taken the advice of urban I still wouldn't be able to walk.

It's willy waving - nothing more nothing less. There are people on here who I like, some of them in real life, and then I see them on a Jazz thread and I think so much less of them it's unreal. Of course people shoiuld feel free to disagree with what he posts but the way in which it's dne is like watching one of those fights where there's someone on the ground getting a kicking and passers by just join in. It's bullying, it's cowardly, it's hardly intelligent. If all you can come up with is gratuitous insults and dicking about with someone's username then I pity you

 

[fractionMan]

thread fil

 

[Blagsta]

the main thing that bugs me about jazzz is his promotion of far right propaganda.

 

[fractionMan]

jazz doesn't get bullied, he just gets pulled up when he post bollocks posing as medical advice. over and over again.

 

[madzone]

jazz doesn't get bullied, he just gets pulled up when he post bollocks posing as medical advice. over and over again.

Yes he does. He gets called all sorts of names. For too long there's been an attitude of acceptance of it and I'm glad the mods appear to be taking a firmer stand on it.

Also, it's interesting that on another forum I use there's a scientist who bullies, sneers and insults anyone who questions science in any way. Why do so many scientists have a chip on their shoulder?

 

[Blagsta]

lol

 

[Callie]

Also, it's interesting that on another forum I use there's a scientist who bullies, sneers and insults anyone who questions science in any way. Why do so many scientists have a chip on their shoulder?

I don't know about this other scientist you mention but I think a lot of people get very riled up here because when it comes to people's health people feel quite passionate about it and genuinely worry that misinformation or posts that could be deemed to be scaremongering could actually be damaging.

As for the sneery attitude thats just how some people argue, its easy to call names and accuse someone of being 'fucked in the head', having 'something seriously wrong with him' and a 'nutter'. Sadly that doesn't help their point and just makes them look a bit daft. I'm not saying I haven't done the same thing on occasion though.