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Uruguay vs England (Group D) Thursday 19th June 2014

Going back to the thing about the nippers, football should at the very least be fun for kids to play. If everyone's lost sight of that, it's miserable in the extreme.
Not really related to much, but it's interesting to hear that, because one thing Gianluca Vialli says in his book with Gabriele Marcotti is that in England football is seen as a game, and some great metaphor for living, whereas in Italy and other countries it's seen as a job that you should do well. A job you enjoy, perhaps, but a job all the same.

I'm not disputing the assessment of youth football at all, it certainly seems a consistent thread, it's just weird how that dichotomy/disconnect seems to occur.
 
Not really related to much, but it's interesting to hear that, because one thing Gianluca Vialli says in his book with Gabriele Marcotti is that in England football is seen as a game, and some great metaphor for living, whereas in Italy and other countries it's seen as a job that you should do well. A job you enjoy, perhaps, but a job all the same.

I'm not disputing the assessment of youth football at all, it certainly seems a consistent thread, it's just weird how that dichotomy/disconnect seems to occur.

Italy do play rather workmanlike, effective, but joyless football though don't they? The philosophy is working.
 
Xenophobia now! englund 'till I die me.
keep flying that flag!
well until the neighbours put theirs away so then you can too

what is the "respectable" time to wait
i know some snap their plastic flags of their cars as soon as you lose and other ruin their cheap shit flags by crying on them too much
 
The fella corner right of this pic seems to have enjoyed the match... :p
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I don't follow England friendlies and qualifiers, I hate the sight of the St. George's cross knight fancy dress, England fans abroad are an embarrassment,
Because they wave flags, wear facepaint and dress up?

They are no different from supporters of other countries.
 
Because they wave flags, wear facepaint and dress up?

They are no different from supporters of other countries.

I thin there is a difference in the mood that surrounds England fans. 400 English blokes stood around pre-game singing about World War 2 and shouting "get your tits out for the lads" at girls passing by. Remember that they had to pull the big screens in public because everyone started fighting (2006 was it)? The face-painting and flag-waving is the same but if you were in Brazil now as a neutral, I think I'd go and watch the game with the suppporters of almost any other country. It doesn't always have the same testosterone tinge to it in the others places I've lived. It's enthusiastic rather than vaguely aggro and moody.
 
Totally agree with your basic position, but imo the FA Level 1 badge is not just bad because it is simple to the point of idiocy but because it contains exercises which are actually literally going to make young players worse. I had a personal epiphany while coaching a group using an exercise from the Level 1 handbook called "Robin Hood" and I realised that I was spending more time and energy stopping the kids queuing up from messing about with some loose footballs (and the queuing kids were 7 out of 8 of them at any one moment - i.e. 7/8 of them are just standing still, watching at any one time) than I was spending time on actually improving anyones' technique. I heard myself continually shouting "Leave that football alone!" - it would have been better if there had been no one coaching and they had just been left to mess around with the kit on their own - at least they'd have got some decent time on the ball and been practising feeling comfortable with that.

"Leave that football alone!" - is now my personal motto for FA-inspired coaching in England and with the help of it I have managed to completely wean myself off their ideas for coaching children.

What I would disagree with is your characterisation of Level 2 as "adding beans" to the toast of Level 1. I think the Level 2 is a decent enough course as it stands and imo most would-be coaches will learn a lot of interesting stuff doing that course, including technical breakdowns of certain skills which I certainly wish I had known as a player. The problem with the L2 imo is that it is completely non-applicable to children, you'd have to be working with at least young teenagers to be able to apply any of the L2 learning. So we're left with a L1 which is simplistic to the point of idiocy (and so badly thought out that it will turn youngsters off and de-skill them) followed by a L2 which is basically for grown ups. So between the ages of ?3/?4/whenever you start trying to influence young players up to teenage years (i.e. exactly the age group which the overwhelming majority coaches will be working with) there is basically absolutely nothing useful from the FA.

Personally I now always start with every child with a ball at their feet for at least the first 15 minutes of any session, often more. If it does nothing else it temporarily sates their need for ball-time and thus makes them less fidgety and more attentive later, but it also means that ALL of them get to be comfortable with the ball at their feet, not just those who happen to be "good" when they are 5 and then monopolise the ball in their playing groups for the next 15 years. I think psychologically it also means that there is a message being sent from the coaches that says "you are here to learn how to use the football".

I have seen so many coaching sessions at so many football clubs start off with youngsters being sent off to do (pretty pointless) things like running round the pitch for 10 minutes as a "warm-up" right at the beginning and I always think, fucksake, why not at least give them a ball and tell them to dribble round the pitch, at least they'd get be getting some ball time - but what's actually going on is that they are "learning" to think of football as a macho, army-style initiation rite into contemporary British masculinity. What bullshit.

Level two is more involved as you rightly say I am being a little bit sardonic in my annoyed state, yet I'm also correct in saying from child development perspective and as you have outlined, level two isn't a lot of good for kids.

I prefer the youth modules for teenagers.

What I have found in dealing with young children is to simply put the enjoyment back into playing with a football. At the end of the day it is not rocket science get them playing with a Football you get them kicking dribbling shot practice keepie uppie and ultimately playing balanced matches. Most of the coaching drills for kids are rubbish, you need to have an element of fun.

I'll get back with a more detailed reply later ... I'm working....!


Would you say one factor is the Prem-/Sky-ification of English football, which has led (as you say above) to clubs preferring to buy from abroad for a quick solution to short term needs, rather than put in the time/resources to develop home-grown talent? This might go part way to explain why a nation with c45 (?) million people doesn't seem to be any better than ones with c3.5 million (Uruguay) or c4.5 million (Croatia) - only a fraction of our young talent is getting through to the top?

Yes that us certainly having an affect. The total funding of grassroots football I believe is around 25 million per annum.(Gareth Bales foot) The Fa collected 28 million from level 1 useless coaching badges alone. sky make 100s of millions, the football clubs get millions but squander much of that on over inflated fees and wages.

I have considered setting up a community football organisation to give grassroots an independent voice. The FA have a total monopoly on the game and dictate everything to do with the game, which on the surface appears fine (it is their rules after all) but an organisation with an independent voice to represent grassroots community football would be a good idea. As far as I am aware there isn't one.
 
Wherever I've taught, nobody has ever had any idea where Wales is. If I show them a map of the British Isles and ask them to name the countries, they say "Ireland, Scotland and England".

When I say "And Wales!" they usually reply "¿Qué?"

A place so shit people don't even know it exists. Why can't you be interesting Celts like the Irish and the Scottish?

stop being a cunt, please.
 
I have considered setting up a community football organisation to give grassroots an independent voice. The FA have a total monopoly on the game and dictate everything to do with the game, which on the surface appears fine (it is their rules after all) but an organisation with an independent voice to represent grassroots community football would be a good idea. As far as I am aware there isn't one.
For the tiny amount that talk is worth on the internet, I think a lot of people, myself included, would support that.

I'd actually thought about using my involvement with three-sided football to sneak it in - dress it up as "let's play this novel version of football" but sneak in some things that normal training apparently fails to address. Fair to say this may be extending beyond my abilities though :oops: :D
 
stop being a cunt, please.

The last two sentences were intentional insults and not a representation of my real opinion. I'll write whatever daft insult I like in the context of a football thread where people are dishing out stick so piss off.

The first part was true by the way. That does reflect my experience.
 
The last two sentences were intentional insults and not a representation of my real opinion. I'll write whatever daft insult I like in the context of a football thread where people are dishing out stick so piss off.

The first part was true by the way. That does reflect my experience.

carry on being a cunt, then.
 
The Fa collected 28 million from level 1 useless coaching badges alone.

I know it's a joke, it's basically a pension fund for retired pro's. I had George Parris sleep-walking through a weekend, he obviously didn't even know the unbelievably simple curriculum and trying to get in with the lads. Pathetic.

I have considered setting up a community football organisation to give grassroots an independent voice. The FA have a total monopoly on the game and dictate everything to do with the game, which on the surface appears fine (it is their rules after all) but an organisation with an independent voice to represent grassroots community football would be a good idea. As far as I am aware there isn't one.

It's obviously a good idea but beware, the FA guard their monopoly ruthlessly. Anyone who plays in an unregistered league or tournament can (and will) get threatened with being "banned" from FA football (as if anyone will ever know in most places) but more importantly, referees will be and they often are financially dependent on FA match fees. I've had them pull out on me after local FA busybodies pestered them.
 
'It doesn't matter it's only international football'.... Try telling that to the millions crying in their beer last night!

You are clearly not reading my posts. The England team is the end result of all that I bang on about (you can apply the same principles to Scotland, Wales and Ireland for all you smug bastards gloating at our failure!) I have cited plenty of variables. The youth coaching is not a minor part, it's hugely important and interwoven with the other points I made including the national psyche, money and facilities.

A Dutch coach I met coined the phrase 'Determination Football'
That is the English/British way and why we end up with players like Gerrard and John Terry leading the international team. I see determination football every week with the anger fear driven ranting of coaches and parents. You go to a football match especially premier league and you see where the ranting comes from.

I had to tell one of my own coaches to go away after he started bawling at my team during a recent match. He constantly lambasted one of my players and as a result smashed this boys confidence in the match, the boy told me he was scared. This typifies what goes on up and down the UK. I witness this every week.

Level one FA coaching badge is the culinary equivalent to learning how to make a slice of toast. Most coaches in this country are level one. Level two is like adding beans to the toast.

As things stand in 2012 Spain had 25,000 Uefa A, B and Pro Licence coaches, Italy 30,000 and Germany 35,000 while England had less than 6,000.

Effectively England is five and six to one down ratio-wise on any other major soccer nation in terms of qualified coaches at that level.

FA's Coaching Numbers 2012 (I'll try and get up to date figures)
  • Level 1 coaches 239,692
  • Level 2 coaches 31,952
  • Uefa B Licence 4,749
  • Uefa A Licence 1,073
  • Uefa Pro Licence 183
  • Goalkeeping A Licence 58
  • Goalkeeping B Licence 159
  • FA Youth Award Mod 1 7,078
  • FA Youth Award Mod 2 2,844
  • FA Youth Award Mod 3 301
Look at the goalkeeping stats, it's pathetic, as is the pro licence. I remember reading that Germany has 2400 pro licence holders against our 200.

This winter due to the weather and the awful pitches we are expected to develop players on, my club did not play a competitive game for virtually three months. That would not happen in Germany.

We produce some young players with natural talent and technique and then watch them get beaten, scared to death psychologically and culturally. Many of the scouts run around looking for big atheletic kids, Fulham are renowned for this. Lionel Messi would never of happened in the UK, because he would have been considered too small by many clubs standards.

Our under 17s do well, but it's a small cluster from a huge pool and it's often short lived and does not evolve. Smaller countries like Uruguay with just 3.7 million people have out performed us throughout eternity. (66 aside). Why?

The Germans fixed their problems pretty quick, we on the other hand.... We largely don't care about grass roots football. You see that even here on U75. I started a thread on it, about six people contributed a total of 200 words. We are ambivalent.

In London the facilities are derisory, Recently I could not book a pitch anywhere with a five mile radius of where I am based, there is a huge shortage of facilities and they cost an absolute fortune, community football has fuck all funding, but the bigwigs in the FA and the premier league dine out on the glory of our game that is largely populated by the overseas players developed in better environments.

What everyone witnessed last night and every other night of international tournament disappointment I believe can be traced back to everything I have posted.
what an inordinately and unnecessarily long post.

firstly, most of the people who "cry into their beers" are sofa fans who watch football once every two years, so who cares what they think?

secondly, I get all the stuff about inadequate coaching and bla bla bla, but it's got sod all to do with the end product. I mean you've quoted all those stats for Germany, Spain etc. but what are the equivalents for Uruguay, Argentina or Brazil? Sure it doesn't help that English coaches have bad habits and not enough qualifications, but it's certainly not standing in the way of producing 22 sodding players (as success at lower levels shows).
 
I thin there is a difference in the mood that surrounds England fans. 400 English blokes stood around pre-game singing about World War 2 and shouting "get your tits out for the lads" at girls passing by. Remember that they had to pull the big screens in public because everyone started fighting (2006 was it)? The face-painting and flag-waving is the same but if you were in Brazil now as a neutral, I think I'd go and watch the game with the suppporters of almost any other country. It doesn't always have the same testosterone tinge to it in the others places I've lived. It's enthusiastic rather than vaguely aggro and moody.
I think you're years out of date, tbh. You're always going to get some acting the way you describe but fortunately it's very much the minority, and it applies to the supporters of most footballing nations. Watching England is more of a family activity than it has ever been before, although you've had mixed sex groups and families going for decades.
 
I know it. :)

You're the sad, bitter cunt with a chip on your shoulder who twists things and misrepresents them to suit yourself.
aww getting all personal and abusive again

you are meant to be a rep shop steward aren't you? yet like posts making a 'joke' out of someone's employment status
sort your self out son :D
 
aww getting all personal and abusive again

you are meant to be a rep shop steward aren't you? yet like posts making a 'joke' out of someone's employment status
sort your self out son :D
I liked the post because it was amusing.

Shop stewards have senses of humour too. You should try developing one.

:D at your desperate attempts on this thread, by the way. You really are a sorry excuse, aren't you! :D
 
you keep believing other fans are as bad as englun ones dear, quite illustrative of your delusions!
not going to join you in upping the smiley quota to bracket your barbs, boy
 
you keep believing other fans are as bad as englun ones dear, quite illustrative of your delusions!

"Other fans as bad as" Shows your biased viewpoint quite well. I never actually said that, in fact I said the opposite. Never let what people are saying get in the way of your opinion though, eh? More of this from you, as always!-

You're the sad, bitter cunt with a chip on your shoulder who twists things and misrepresents them to suit yourself.

Would be interesting to hear what you are basing your claims on, though. But I've never seen you back up any of your claims before, so I won't hold my breath......
 
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