Uruguay vs England (Group D) Thursday 19th June 2014

[Lo Siento.]

Maybe it's something to do with us being a nation of pessimists?
After the Italy game I was expecting an improvement on what was essentially an out of character performance but tonight, we just reverted back to the bad old days of previous tournaments, almost like a default DNA game-play.

Uruguay pressed us more effectively in possession in first half than the Italians had.

 

[pocketscience]

I don't think it's nerves. I think Uruguay just had a better game plan that they executed better.

That implies that England had a game plan. To me they looked like the usual headless chickens of previous tornements.

 

[skyscraper101]

I do think England are particularly nervy - its hard to judge as a nervous fan but I think there is something wrong there - its hard to pinpoint why, its not as if teams like Brazil or Italy dont have the same of level of national interest in their teams

Agreed. They succumb to the pressure like no other nation of their (on paper) caliber and it shows in their nervy play. The only point in this game where they seemed to play with any confidence was after Rooney scored which by then was too late, and just 2 seconds of negligence on the other end and Suarez took advantage and they went to shit for the rest of the match.

England currently only seem to play well when they're up against a more formidable opposition. When we played Italy, we lost but played well. When we played Brazil last year at the Maracana we played well and managed a 2-2 draw. But against relatively moderate teams like Ukraine and Poland in crunch qualifier matches, we manage regular 0-0 or 1-1 draws and scrape through in spite of their performance rather than because of it. They could only manage draws against Honduras and Ecuador too in Miami. Totally unconvincing performances.

 

[ska invita]

Maybe it's something to do with us being a nation of pessimists?
After the Italy game I was expecting an improvement on what was essentially an out of character performance but tonight, we just reverted back to the bad old days of previous tournaments, almost like a default DNA game-play.

i find it really hard to tell...i dont think the key problem tonight was bad attitude, i think the problem was more that its a squad that is still unsettled - from game to game experimenting with shape and positions, and one where still a good solution hasn't been found, so the team felt a bit awkward moving around the pitch...that and some of the players just aren't that good...the defense is shabby etc etc

I think it was hard for them to come out tonight and feel like a confident unbeatable team when in the scheme of things they are still such an experimental side, and they know it.

 

[pocketscience]

Uruguay pressed us more effectively in possession in first half than the Italians had.

As mentioned in my previous post, if they had the self belief I think they would have been able to mitigate that. Why the fuck they just continued to pass themselves into the same trouble for 90 minutes without doing anything about it is beyond me. I can only think it's down to a lack of confidence.

 

[Lea]

Come on Italy! Italy to win their next two games, please!

 

[ska invita]

I still say we should have brought Lennon, but more importantly perhaps, Harry Redknapp wouldve made a better manager - I think he can instill a genuine sense of positivity into a squad

 

[ska invita]

Come on Italy! Italy to win their next two games, please!

yeah its far from over! can still escape defeat
which reminds me, where are the england band?

 

[pocketscience]

...that and some of the players just aren't that good...the defense is shabby etc etc
.

It pains me to say it but Terry and Cole were missing out there.

 

[ska invita]

nearly clicked like....nearly

 

[pocketscience]

nearly clicked like....nearly

 

[Lo Siento.]

As mentioned in my previous post, if they had the self belief I think they would have been able to mitigate that. Why the fuck they just continued to pass themselves into the same trouble for 90 minutes without doing anything about it is beyond me. I can only think it's down to a lack of confidence.

Or, playing a team that have been playing together for 4+ years and know how to negate other people's plans.

 

[Lo Siento.]

I still say we should have brought Lennon, but more importantly perhaps, Harry Redknapp wouldve made a better manager - I think he can instill a genuine sense of positivity into a squad

If Harry Redknapp is the answer then the question is wrong.

 

[ska invita]

If Harry Redknapp is the answer then the question is wrong.

we may not have got much further under him, but we'd have paid less tax

 

[editor]

Private Eye nailed it.

 

[gabi]

I see gabi's doing his usual coat tail riding again. Your arse must be really chaffed with all that riding on Australia's coat tails in the cricket and the tiresome ABE routine every time we qualify for a tournament.

I'm not riding on anyone's coat tails you idiot. I support England. But it was pretty clear to me that if Suarez was fit, England would have no answer. That's what I said upthread ^^^ and was told I don't understand football.

I definitely don't support the Aussies, havent seen one of their matches. Got out of bed at 3am this morning to witness yet another valiant yet clueless English defeat. I've sat through many years of these and would honestly like to see them finally pull their fingers out and win something.

 

[alfajobrob]

Fuck it...I didn't expect much but that was a scared performance...I'm not surprised though after they thought it was good for Gerrard\Lampard to have a team talk saying how bad it is if you lose and it ruins your summer/year.....Jesus Fuck...not exactly inspiritational is it?

I'm over it already though... as someone that was watching England in Espana82 when I was 8....it no longer surprises me and I had a lack of expectations.

I did like the general ethos from Roy and the team before match but it didn't seem to carry over.....they did try though and still have a miniscule chance..like fuck


ddraig.... your just a lickspittle little cunt.

 

[gabi]

I kinda felt for Hodgson. As 60 mins came up I thought, who the fuck can he bring on? There's not exactly a Messi sitting on the bench. On strolls Ross Barkley...

It's not his fault theyre arent enough quality english players to choose from. There's a systemic problem with English football.

 

[Batboy]

(a) It doesn't really matter, it's only international football. If coaching in UK needs fixing because it's doing wrong by the kids then fix it for that good reason, not for the shit reason that England are rubbish every couple of years. Because only JCLs really care.

(b) Even if you fixed all of that, producing an international team that wins tournaments is mainly about a load of different factors all coming together at once of which youth coaching is a pretty minor part. England produce enough decent young players to be competitive in international tournaments at most youth levels. They've got a decent crop of kids now. But whether they ever become a great side has a whole bundle of uncontrollable variables that go beyond technique etc.

'It doesn't matter it's only international football'.... Try telling that to the millions crying in their beer last night!

You are clearly not reading my posts. The England team is the end result of all that I bang on about (you can apply the same principles to Scotland, Wales and Ireland for all you smug bastards gloating at our failure!) I have cited plenty of variables. The youth coaching is not a minor part, it's hugely important and interwoven with the other points I made including the national psyche, money and facilities.

A Dutch coach I met coined the phrase 'Determination Football'
That is the English/British way and why we end up with players like Gerrard and John Terry leading the international team. I see determination football every week with the anger fear driven ranting of coaches and parents. You go to a football match especially premier league and you see where the ranting comes from.

I had to tell one of my own coaches to go away after he started bawling at my team during a recent match. He constantly lambasted one of my players and as a result smashed this boys confidence in the match, the boy told me he was scared. This typifies what goes on up and down the UK. I witness this every week.

Level one FA coaching badge is the culinary equivalent to learning how to make a slice of toast. Most coaches in this country are level one. Level two is like adding beans to the toast.

As things stand in 2012 Spain had 25,000 Uefa A, B and Pro Licence coaches, Italy 30,000 and Germany 35,000 while England had less than 6,000.

Effectively England is five and six to one down ratio-wise on any other major soccer nation in terms of qualified coaches at that level.

FA's Coaching Numbers 2012 (I'll try and get up to date figures)

• Level 1 coaches 239,692
• Level 2 coaches 31,952
• Uefa B Licence 4,749
• Uefa A Licence 1,073
• Uefa Pro Licence 183
• Goalkeeping A Licence 58
• Goalkeeping B Licence 159
• FA Youth Award Mod 1 7,078
• FA Youth Award Mod 2 2,844
• FA Youth Award Mod 3 301

Look at the goalkeeping stats, it's pathetic, as is the pro licence. I remember reading that Germany has 2400 pro licence holders against our 200.

This winter due to the weather and the awful pitches we are expected to develop players on, my club did not play a competitive game for virtually three months. That would not happen in Germany.

We produce some young players with natural talent and technique and then watch them get beaten, scared to death psychologically and culturally. Many of the scouts run around looking for big atheletic kids, Fulham are renowned for this. Lionel Messi would never of happened in the UK, because he would have been considered too small by many clubs standards.

Our under 17s do well, but it's a small cluster from a huge pool and it's often short lived and does not evolve. Smaller countries like Uruguay with just 3.7 million people have out performed us throughout eternity. (66 aside). Why?

The Germans fixed their problems pretty quick, we on the other hand.... We largely don't care about grass roots football. You see that even here on U75. I started a thread on it, about six people contributed a total of 200 words. We are ambivalent.

In London the facilities are derisory, Recently I could not book a pitch anywhere with a five mile radius of where I am based, there is a huge shortage of facilities and they cost an absolute fortune, community football has fuck all funding, but the bigwigs in the FA and the premier league dine out on the glory of our game that is largely populated by the overseas players developed in better environments.

What everyone witnessed last night and every other night of international tournament disappointment I believe can be traced back to everything I have posted.

 

[Batboy]

The underlying issue the England team have had for years in major tournaments is their psychology. It was wriiten all over their faces in the tunnel before the game and then confirmed after five minutes of play: No confidence or self belief!
The main tactical mistake (possibly impacted from the first issue) was to not trying to have the young kids running/dribbling through the Uruguayan defence.
If England would have run at them, Uruguay would have picked up yellow cards in quick succession and subsequently they's have needed to drop off the tight marking, enabling England the two meters of extra space on the ball they needed.
In nutshell - England bottled it.

Yep... Steven Gerrard's wonderful 'inspirational' meaningful lecture to the younger players on the 'pain of failure' worked wonders.

I choked when I heard this in the news yesterday. That was when when I knew England lost last nights game.

 

[kabbes]

Gerrard is a loser, he plays a loser's game. I can't remember him ever putting in an important England performance. And I can't remember Rooney turning one in either.

Both of them belong to the failed generation and neither should have got anywhere near this team.

 

[gabi]

Who would you have instead then? Sadly Rooney is your best player. And Gerard probably next. I don't know who else Hodgson could have turned to.

 

[Sunray]

WTF, 24 pages.

I knew this team wouldn't get past the group stages so I'm not bothered by the loss. What is shocking is how many of you lot felt differently.

But I think we will have a decent showing in the the Euros.

 

[Batboy]

Gerrard is a loser, he plays a loser's game. I can't remember him ever putting in an important England performance. And I can't remember Rooney turning one in either.

Both of them belong to the failed generation and neither should have got anywhere near this team.

Rather than blame them we should look at why Gerrard in particular would be placed in a position to bang on about the 'pain of failure ' He got that from somewhere. It is ingrained into his/our psyche.

Gerrard is not a failure. Coming second is not failing. Coming last is a position to learn from.

I run a kids u14 football team. My simple philosophy is to build confidence through positive encouragement and mentoring. I hate ranters (yeah I know it's ironic!). This season it slotted together we won the league and remained unbeaten for 20 games. We have been invited to a national tournament in the midlands to represent London. The team oozed confidence. Coaching is about practice, thinking and being positive. You do not need to scream or abuse to get people to perform for you. That principle applies to everything in life.

Two weeks ago I allowed one of my training coaches to take charge of a match (I normally manage match days) In the space of ten minutes he caused chaos by screaming, ranting and telling off players for doing things in his eyes that were wrong. We lost that match in that ten minutes, the first loss in 21 games. At half time I told him to leave the touch line.

He created fear.

Gerrard did the same because he knows no different. The fear of defeat is not a motivational tool I would use. It's not that Gerrard is a loser, in terms of attitude he knows no different, this is what has been ingrained into him.

People talk about the losing mentality. That's a mindset that can be taught and passed on. This is a big part of what English/British sportsman have to overcome.

 

[kabbes]

Yes, in other words: Gerrard is a loser. In the head, that's what he is. And that's what I meant.

 

[Corax]

Result aside, Suarez has a very stupid face.

 

[scalyboy]

im genuinely down about the result..its got to me.

BUt did you really expect them to do any better ska? To be fair, I did think there was a chance of getting out of the group (which technically could still happen, but, as IIRC the Leslie Kong-era Wailers sang, "it's gonna take a miracle").

But equally I thought: I won't be surprised if they fail to get beyond the group because of the quality of Uruguay and Italy.

When either of them had possession they looked comfortable, passing it around nicely - but when England have possession it somehow doesn't look convincing to me. They look nervy, uncertain, as if they've been told 'this is what top teams are supposed to do'. Maybe their natural inclination is to hit it long and run at defences at pace, and the possession game unsettles them? It's only one point among mnay, but if you can't keep possession you end up tiring yourselves out chasing the ball - and becoming dispirited?

Leaving aside the panicky, disorganized defence. Uruguay's seemed more solid.

 

[Pickman's model]

WTF, 24 pages.

I knew this team wouldn't get past the group stages so I'm not bothered by the loss. What is shocking is how many of you lot felt differently.

But I think we will have a decent showing in the the Euros.

about 1.23 to the pound atm

 

[scalyboy]

You are so Wrong, no major overhaul needed?, sorry you are deluded if you truly think this....

I work at grassroots level and have done for the last 8 years, I could write a bible on this. There is so much wrong with our attitude and approach to the game. There is huge raw talent that starts out and gets flattened by a lack of money, facilities and dreadful coaching/coaches and even more dreadful attitudes on the part of Joe Boggs the parent screaming from the touchline.The old guard at the FA are clueless to what needs to be done and stuck up their own rectum dining out on the riches of the game. The Germans totally overhauled themselves when they found themselves floundering in the football world. We bring in smaller games of 9 v 9 on the same shit pitches (this comment/observation by the way was from a 13 year old who plays for a team I coach) with a rule not to publish results for kids under 8 and we think we are revolutionising our game!

The money is at the top of the game, it stays there. For the few that make it into the professional academies 1000s get wasted. A professional club in the premier league would rather buy instant success from abroad than wait for young players to develop. Managers are under immense pressure to get results for fear of sack, that they bypass youth development in any meaningful way ( Southampton aside and they have gone into that direction largely because of past huge financial problems).

At grass roots level when you start harvesting kids that the professional academies then are interested in, you can effectively get back handers/incentives by becoming a clubs community coach (some clubs will pay you 1000-2000 per kid). The net result is mercenary shit FA level 2 coaches who backstab each other and lose sight of youth development for the right reasons. Everyone is looking for the quick fix.

We have average players by national standards, we have under performed for decades at international level (Even Greece and Denmark have won the Euros). This is the first time in 60 years that we are going home at this stage (yes I know a couple of times we didn't qualify)and that's with what you think is a good group of players. We lost those two games, there is a chance we will lose to Costa Rica ( they did beat Uruguay after all). So we lose all three game with good players and then no major overhauls are needed!? I don't think so. These good players will get flattened by both this experience and the environment of fear of failure generated by the likes of Steven Gerard the captain and most senior England player.

Would you say one factor is the Prem-/Sky-ification of English football, which has led (as you say above) to clubs preferring to buy from abroad for a quick solution to short term needs, rather than put in the time/resources to develop home-grown talent? This might go part way to explain why a nation with c45 (?) million people doesn't seem to be any better than ones with c3.5 million (Uruguay) or c4.5 million (Croatia) - only a fraction of our young talent is getting through to the top?

 

[goldenecitrone]

LOL

Man hug.