Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Sue]

My starting point was actually the book 'Collar the Lot' by Peter Gilman which I read some time ago and would recommend to you.

Completely coincidentally, someone literally just shared this with me. Haven't listened to it yet but definitely will.

BBC Radio 4 - Archive on 4, Collar the Lot

Tom Conti explores the story of Italian internment in Britain during World War II.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Spymaster]

It’s because of his expansionist desires that he sees NATO expansion into that sphere as a threat; not because he thinks he’ll be attacked by NATO although he does say it threatens Russia’s security.

So you're my neighbour who's openly robbed half the houses in the street but not mine yet. I install an alarm system and you consider that some form of escalation or provocation?

Yes, he says it's a threat to Russia's security but that's bollocks. It's a threat to his land-grabbing designs.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

So you're my neighbour who's openly robbed half the houses in the street but not mine yet. I install an alarm system and you consider that some form of escalation or provocation?

Yes, he says it's a threat to Russia's security but that's bollocks. It's a threat to his land-grabbing designs.

He sees the collapse of the Soviet Union as a tragedy. Yes he has imperialist designs. He thinks NATO are taking the piss moving into the Baltic states. Whether that encouraged/accelerated his imperialist designs only he can know. But you and everyone else’s position here is that it didn’t. So why will it be on the negotiating table?

 

[Dystopiary]

British MoD reckons Tuesday (15th Nov) Ukraine experienced "likely the largest number of strikes that Russia has conducted in a single day since the first week of the invasion."

Many were intercepted, thankfully.

 

[Spymaster]

He sees the collapse of the Soviet Union as a tragedy. Yes he has imperialist designs. He thinks NATO are taking the piss moving into the Baltic states. Whether that encouraged/accelerated his imperialist designs only he can know. But you and everyone else’s position here is that it didn’t. So why will it be on the negotiating table?

Why will what be on the table?

 

[The39thStep]

So you're my neighbour who's openly robbed half the houses in the street but not mine yet. I install an alarm system and you consider that some form of escalation or provocation?

Yes, he says it's a threat to Russia's security but that's bollocks. It's a threat to his land-grabbing designs.

I'll add this to other war in Ukraine house analogies like

But if someone broke into my house & tried to steal my stuff and at the end of the altercation they buggered off empty handed you could but probably wouldn’t call it a draw

If I’m demolishing your garage and shouting to let you know that I might set fire to it too, you’d respond by talking about how I’d better not set foot inside your house.

 

[kabbes]

There’s no such thing as discourse without purpose and meaning. All conversation is directed. The pretence that you can position yourself in a conversation as some kind of detached, objective observer “just asking questions” is itself a reinforcer of power relations.

So let me ask: what is the purpose in asking about Putin’s “true” perception of NATO? What comes next in this series of questions? If we were to conclude that Putin was, in fact, terrified of NATO’s shadow, what does that change? Does it matter how NATO actually acts or what its intentions are, or does it only matter how Putin perceives them?

In short, where is this going?

 

[kebabking]

...So why will it be on the negotiating table?

It's not.

Ukraine see's the principle of what organisations it chooses to be a member of as only marginally behind it's territorial integrity on the list of its war - and societal - aims.

NATO and the EU both take the same view - that membership of either is a matter purely for the applicant and member states, and they are utterly solid in ensuring that that principle holds.

Additionally, as well as the genuinely serious principle of sovereignty involved, Ukraine is not going to agree to the same non-membership of NATO and the EU that didn't protect it from Russia in 2014 or 2022.

There is, I absolutely promise you, no one in either the Ukrainian government, or within NATO or the EU, who is saying that restrictions on membership are potentially on the table.

 

[RedRedRose]

Although Poles do loath Russia, they also have history of spats with Ukraine, which is not exactly pleasant either. Its anti-migrant migrant rhetoric could easily be weaponised against Ukrainians who have taken up residence there.

In Poland, a Warm Welcome for Ukrainian Refugees Wobbles

 

[Magnus McGinty]

It's not.

Ukraine see's the principle of what organisations it chooses to be a member of as only marginally behind it's territorial integrity on the list of its war - and societal - aims.

NATO and the EU both take the same view - that membership of either is a matter purely for the applicant and member states, and they are utterly solid in ensuring that that principle holds.

Additionally, as well as the genuinely serious principle of sovereignty involved, Ukraine is not going to agree to the same non-membership of NATO and the EU that didn't protect it from Russia in 2014 or 2022.

There is, I absolutely promise you, no one in either the Ukrainian government, or within NATO or the EU, who is saying that restrictions on membership are potentially on the table.

Well I can only go on what’s being reported so I’ll take your word for it.

 

[Rimbaud]

Interesting points, but you contradict yourself by arguing simultaneously that NATO expansion happened 18 years ago so is irrelevant now, but then talk about buffer zones and spheres of influence (which I agree with btw) as if that is more relevant yet that happened with the fall of the iron curtain which was longer than 18 years ago.

Well that's kind of the point. Putin still feels like Russia is a great world power as it was when he was a young man, and therefore is entitled to a buffer zone and sphere of influence, rather than what it actually is - a middle power in terminal decline, to a large extent because of people like Putin and his cronies, who have "invested" money from oil resources into buying loyalty of oligarchs which then goes to super yachts, football teams, and luxury mansions in Western Europe rather than in attempting to develop a manufacturing base. It is him and his cronies who have also alienated Russia's neighbours and economic partners by prioritising macho posturing and playing Peter the Great over improving people's living standards.

 

[WouldBe]

He sees the collapse of the Soviet Union as a tragedy. Yes he has imperialist designs. He thinks NATO are taking the piss moving into the Baltic states. Whether that encouraged/accelerated his imperialist designs only he can know. But you and everyone else’s position here is that it didn’t. So why will it be on the negotiating table?

You make it sound like NATO invaded the Baltic States. They didn't, they were effectively invited in.

 

[editor]

Not at all. So you obviously haven't read all my points before diving in.

And you've barely read any of the thread before diving in and repeating the same things that had been discussed months ago.

 

[spitfire]

The long term causes of war in Ukraine

I think the main thread is talking about the invasion itself as it stands now and reactions to it. Any discussion about NATO, Post soviet western relations, shock capitalism in 1990s Russia etc are a bit disruptive to it. So I've made a shiny new thread for such discussions here.

www.urban75.net

HTH.

 

[Pickman's model]

The long term causes of war in Ukraine

I think the main thread is talking about the invasion itself as it stands now and reactions to it. Any discussion about NATO, Post soviet western relations, shock capitalism in 1990s Russia etc are a bit disruptive to it. So I've made a shiny new thread for such discussions here.

www.urban75.net

HTH.

Where's the fun in that?

 

[Yossarian]

Mariupol is the only city bigger than Kherson still occupied from post Feb 24th lines. When that gets liberated I can see it being an even more emotional moment, albeit with far more pain and misery having been inflicted on it by the occupiers.

Yep, what they're uncovering in Kherson is grim enough so who knows what horrors will be found in Mariupol - authorities say they've found the bodies of 63 tortured civilians in Kherson and the investigation is still in the early stages.

After the Russians took Kherson, investigators say they rounded up people with connections to the Ukrainian military or partisans who'd protested against their occupation.
They claim to have found 11 illegal prisons and four torture chambers in Kherson after it was liberated. More than 700 people have been reported as missing.

It's feared they are either dead or have been illegally taken to Russian-occupied territories, or Russia itself. And now Ukraine has announced the discovery of dozens of bodies with signs of torture near the city. Interior minister Denys Monastyrsky said the investigation into crimes there had only just begun, "so many more dungeons and burial places will be uncovered"

Ukraine war: Bodies found amid reports of Russian atrocities in Kherson

The BBC speaks to people held by Russians in Kherson, as reports of atrocities emerge from the city.

www.bbc.com

 

[StoneRoad]

After Tuesday's & previous bombardments targeting critical civilian infrastructure, some small contributions to alleviate the situation ...

Warwick charity sends generators to Ukraine as many without power

The Healing Hands Network says those affected by the war are "desperate" for the generators.

www.bbc.co.uk

Well done !

 

[Magnus McGinty]

And you've barely read any of the thread before diving in and repeating the same things that had been discussed months ago.

Not sure that’s in the FAQ as a requisite to comment.

 

[editor]

Not sure that’s in the FAQ as a requisite to comment.

Actually, it is

1. Please read the boards for a while before posting. Use the search function to see if your topic has already been discussed to save repeating questions/threads that already exist.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Actually, it is

That’s for new posters to the boards, no?
It doesn’t say “study every thread in depth before commenting on them.”

 

[gosub]

After Tuesday's & previous bombardments targeting critical civilian infrastructure, some small contributions to alleviate the situation ...

Warwick charity sends generators to Ukraine as many without power

The Healing Hands Network says those affected by the war are "desperate" for the generators.

www.bbc.co.uk

Well done !

Appeal to industry: Ukraine energy equipment (HTML)

www.gov.uk

 

[editor]

That’s for new posters to the boards, no?
It doesn’t say “study every thread in depth before commenting on them.”

Try this one.

Don't act like a dick and we'll all get along fine.

Keep on disrupting this thread and you'll be kicked off it for a week or two in accordance with the rule above. If you wish to keep on nitpicking about the rules with the person who wrote them, take it to the feedback forum, NOT here.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Try this one.


Keep on disrupting this thread and you'll be kicked off it for a week or two in accordance with the rule above.

If you don’t want me to reply stop engaging me.

 

[chilango]

Please can we have some "buffer threads" to stop this kinda nonsense?

 

[The39thStep]

Either he is speechless, can't get a word in edgeways or isn't on the other end of the line. Anyway, it's all going to be figured out step by step by Richie and Justin.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Please can we have some "buffer threads" to stop this kinda nonsense?

Will they be controlled by NATO or Russia?

 

[Cid]

Either he is speechless, can't get a word in edgeways or isn't on the other end of the line. Anyway, it's all going to be figured out step by step by Richie and Justin.

It's just cut to fit with translators and a one minute time limit. Presumably.

 

[chilango]

Will they be controlled by NATO or Russia?

I dunno. Which one does editor support?

 

[editor]

I dunno. Which one does editor support?

I support anyone following this message.

 

[nogojones]

There is no existential threat to Russia, and Russia doesn't seem to believe there is (because Latvia/Estonia and now Finland). There is a threat to the vestiges of Russian imperialist ambition as represented by their desire to preserve buffer zones/zones of control. Don't really see any contradiction there.

I think there is an existential threat to Russia, however I think that threat is down to Putin and the ruling elite. If Russia as it stands today disintergrates, it's down to their actions.