Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[butchersapron]

That's nice but you're hardly representative of urban. Putting you on ignore now & then you can do the same to me & we'll live life to the full without ever having to cross swords again.

What sort of perfect representative of urban are you after - what are the features that you're looking for?

 

[Corax]

I think Farage has a sense of humour and often makes his points with a cheeky smile.

Yes. He reminds me of Boris Johnson in that. And is similarly dangerous for that reason.

 

[treelover]

Tory councillor mate in leafy shire says it keeps coming up on the doorstep; elderly conservatives are furious about it.

Exactly, many on the left, etc can't seem to get inside the minds of middle England, same as in the U.S, the book "What is wrong with Kansas'' attempted to deconstruct these voters of the bible belt.

Not saying we should address such concerns, just be aware, though gay marriage is sometimes contested even in the gay community.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Exactly, many on the left, etc can't seem to get inside the minds of middle England

Why would anybody want to get inside the minds of middle England? What a revolting thought.

 

[butchersapron]

Tory councillor mate in leafy shire says it keeps coming up on the doorstep; elderly conservatives are furious about it.

He also says that Kipper/Tory relations at a constituency party level are thawing, from fury and loathing two years ago to unofficial but cordial discussions these days about low-level non-aggression pacts in 2015

Only going to vote tory or UKIP. No power to expand their vote, only to cut into it. And they cannot retreat without proper old school imperial Afghanistan style massacre.

 

[butchersapron]

Exactly, many on the left, etc can't seem to get inside the minds of middle England, same as in the U.S, the book "What is wrong with Kansas'' attempted to deconstruct these voters of the bible belt.

Not saying we should address such concerns, just be aware, though gay marriage is sometimes contested even in the gay community.

Do they need to? You're not going to win these people by argument are you?

 

[treelover]

No, but you may be able to undermine the arguments/ideas that inform their views

often wonder how a real Harry Perkins would deal with all this, imagination is key..

 

[butchersapron]

No, but you may be able to undermine the arguments/ideas that inform their views

often wonder how a real Harry Perkins would deal with all this, imagination is key..

Maybe, but just build something better rather then formal argument. That means all that stuff that you like, and think people should be doing.

 

[treelover]

The media is making out that UKIP has lots to say and propose about 'welfare' but it seems to me its mostly in terms of 'benefits for migrants', they don't seem to push reform as a key policy, or do they?

sadly, they will have heard it 'on the doorstep'

 

[butchersapron]

The media is making out that UKIP has lots to say and propose about 'welfare' but it seems to me its mostly in terms of 'benefits for migrants', they don't seem to push reform as a key policy, or do they?

sadly, they will have heard it 'on the doorstep'

The trick is to use it/them to make cameron do it. That's it. Nothing else.

Someone us going to get it in the neck for this UKIP victory. They have to.

 

[thedockerslad]

I reckon there's other reasons that you don't 'get involved' gary or kevin or whatever ghastly name you have.

'ghastly'

 

[butchersapron]

'ghastly'

Or horrid. Any answer?

 

[Corax]

I'm not confident that many current UKIP voters can be influenced much either way tbh. Most I've seen interviewed or spoken to personally are either protest voters that don't actually have much affinity for the party, or law'n'order types that will vote for any party with enough of a string 'em up feel to it.

Is it more important to concentrate on influencing new voters? As became evident with the death of Thatcher, there's a generation who have recently reached or are reaching voting age that have no comprehension of the devastation her policies wrought. This is a a growing proportion of the ballot. Concerning?

 

[thedockerslad]

UKIP won't achieve anything in the real elections, just as the BNP didn't. The mainstream political parties and media will ensure they don't.

 

[brogdale]

UKIP won't achieve anything in the real elections, just as the BNP didn't. The mainstream political parties and media will ensure they don't.

But.....they do have the potential to achieve a real kick in the teeth for tory chances of a majority or even minority government.

This is quite a good overview...

Thanks to vigorous Conservative opposition to the Alternative Vote in 2011, the split of the right-of-centre vote now threatens to pitch all parties of the right into the severe under-representation that any first-past-the-post electoral systems keeps waiting for divided parties. For UKIP, the possibility is that they may poll record votes at an election in 2014 or 2015, and yet win not a single Westminster seat. For the Liberal Democrats it is hard to see more than half at best of their current 57 MPs surviving.
And for the Conservatives, unless they can squeeze or partner with one of their rivals, just getting back to the 36 per cent support of 2010 will be tricky. So current crude forecasts (using unified national swing) posit a Labour majority of 90 to 110 seats.

Dunleavy attributes UKIP's rise, in part, to Thatcher's divisivness and the competing tory puppet masters of globalised industrial capital and global finance, and therefore concludes..

...if a Labour victory still eventuates, it will be clear that the lasting legacy of Thatcherism was to fragment the centre-right of British politics, in the process perhaps gifting Ed Miliband with a 1997-like landslide of MPs.

 

[happie chappie]

Look where UKIP did particularly well – Lincolnshire for example.

Boston is a town at the arse end of nowhere close to where I live with few stable jobs, low wages and high levels of migration. Ditto Wisbech and, to a certain extent, Peterborough.

People in London telling the traditional white working class up here that the EU is a wonderful institution and migration brings great economic benefits just doesn’t wash I’m afraid. It’s a world away from their daily lives and experiences.

I’ve lost count of the number of people I know saying they’re fed up with the EU and high levels of migration and they simply want out, irrespective of the long-term consequences. These aren’t hard core fascists, or even racists.

They are just very pissed off with what’s happening where they live and to be honest I can’t blame them.

Don’t dismiss the concerns of the people who vote for them. If you lived out here you’d realise some of them are legitimate.

 

[treelover]

Good post, but leaving the EU wouldn't end their problems

btw, the next big disaster is the EU/US free trade agreement

 

[frogwoman]

It is amazing how people on the left can defend the EU. The EU is instituting legalised theft and a police state in greece and imposed austerity elsewhere within its borders

I don't agree entirely with the migrant workers thing though having lived in a country where many of the people there are desperate to get into the EU. that institution is quite happy to use protectionism to keep people out and demand even more austerity as a "condition" for entry (which will never happen)

 

[Maurice Picarda]

It is amazing how people on the left can defend the EU. The EU is instituting legalised theft and a police state in greece and imposed austerity elsewhere within its borders

Because of all the good things that go with supernational regulation. Consumer protection and employee protection are only really possible when businesses can't play the game of jurisdiction arbitrage.

 

[happie chappie]

Good post, but leaving the EU wouldn't end their problems

It might not - but for many people here the EU (and particularly migration) is the problem as far as they're concerned.

I don't think many people in more prosperous parts of the UK realise just how difficult it is to get anything like a decent job here is, and just how low pay rates are being driven.

I went to the Job Centre with a mate of mine towards the end of last year when he'd lost his job and signed on for the first time.

I looked at the available jobs on the computer terminal. Almost the best paid among the few advertised was for a Santa and his helpers at the local department store. It was just above the minimum wage. I'm not joking, by the way.

He's a skilled man but he's competing against migrants who'll do the work for a fraction of the price. He can hardly pay his mortgage. He couldn't afford to get his car through the MOT so he took the tyres off to sell on Ebay and told the garage to keep the rest of the car.

He's always been a solid Labour man but he's very, very, pissed off. If he could have been arsed to vote today (and I very much doubt he bothered) he would have voted UKIP. If I was in his shoes I'd have probably done the same.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

UKIPs success has been largely bolstered by enormous amounts of attention from press which was, at the time, disproportionate.

Why? Because of the froth of relative novelty, and because UKIP values of shallow, reactionary populism chime with those of the press. It's the same press that spied on a murdered child and implied that claiming benefits can make you kill your children in a house fire. They are the biggest bullies in the land, bar none. The lies about migrants and failure to explain banking fraud show exactly their function and UKIP hits their G spot.

It's natural for governing parties to be unpopular, especially one as inept as the tories, so it's a good vote for genuine rightists and hard rightists.

OK, they are basically a hoax, but that's detail. Who wants detail? It's dull.

How does homophobia make us independent?

Will UKIP nationalise foreign owned infrastructure, like much rail or energy?

Will they make us independent of the finance capital cult? Will they bollocks.

What is their plan for making us independent of our bizarre reliance on so many food imports? Nada.

A problem with attacking them on racism / xenophobia is that the classic smokescreen accusation of "shutting down debate" takes up more time than it is worth and doesn't do anything to put off the significant minority of voters who could be pretty bigoted like that. There are a lot of people who complain that they "are not allowed" to talk about immigration, yet they do little else. It is forever being discussed. They are classic cases of congnitive dissonance, the type who would plan for Christmas with one part of the brain while another part fumed about Christmas being banned.

It is the press and others who have whipped up the hate frenzy, UKIP are just sucking up the rewards of it and the ones really laughing are terrorist facilitating crimewave aka global finance capital, to whom UKIP pay full allegience.

To be fair to UKIP, the proof of the pudding will now be in the eating. Councillors and groups who perform well and genuinely serve in regards to matters that have bugger all to do with Europe will deserve to be re-elected. Not that they necessarily will, if for example the Tories are in opposition 4 years from now (possibly due to a UKIP "SDP" effect).

But still, I am sure many of them are up to the task and many are not.

Weak councillors in larger parties can often have their weakness covered by the work of others. More isolated councillors less so.

BNP and Greens have been known to fail even with some kind of experience base. Complacency and delirium for UKIP right now would not be well advised.

I said some weeks back that too many feet would go in too many mouths sooner or later. That did happen, but because they were in a position of almost uniform opposition it mattered less.

When actual councillors start to balls things up and shoot their mouths off then the tide could quickly turn.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Having said all the above, it is a failing of the left that we have not adapted broadly enough to challenge the EU from the left. Huge swathes of left of centre (if not harder elements) were well in to Europe for social, enviornmental and cultural reasons that are easy to sympathise with.

Times have changed, it's increasingly anti democratic and neoliberal. Labour and The Greens have especially failed to be critical enough. One wouldn't expect it of the LDs. It doesn't mean having to leave btw.

The irony is that UKIP will not altar the main problem of the EU a jot - enforced neoliberalism. They chuffin' love it. That's a prime reason they are a hoax.

 

[butchersapron]

UKIPs success has been largely bolstered by enormous amounts of attention from press which was, at the time, disproportionate..

OK first line

UKIPs success has been largely bolstered by enormous amounts of attention from press

Bit of a mess, What is their success, when dd it happen? Is this success independent of the press? What does bolstered mean?i How come a week of mainstream media attacks resulted in 26%?

 

[butchersapron]

Having said all the above, it is a failing of the left that we have not adapted broadly enough to challenge the EU from the left. Huge swathes of left of centre (if not harder elements) were well in to Europe for social, enviornmental and cultural reasons that are easy to sympathise with.

Times have changed, it's increasingly anti democratic and neoliberal. Labour and The Greens have especially failed to be critical enough. One wouldn't expect it of the LDs. It doesn't mean having to leave btw.

The irony is that UKIP will not altar the main problem of the EU a jot - enforced neoliberalism. They chuffin' love it. That's a prime reason they are a hoax.

Hang on who is the 'we' here - it seems to be labour greens and lib-dems?

 

[butchersapron]

Will UKIP nationalise foreign owned infrastructure, like much rail or energy?

You know nationalise just means owned by the state, it's nothing to do with your foreigner bashing here.

 

[treelover]

who are you referring to?

 

[Maurice Picarda]

He's a skilled man but he's competing against migrants who'll do the work for a fraction of the price.

Are employers flouting minimum wage legislation, or is he simply less skilled than he thinks?

 

[coley]

It might not - but for many people here the EU (and particularly migration) is the problem as far as they're concerned.

I don't think many people in more prosperous parts of the UK realise just how difficult it is to get anything like a decent job here is, and just how low pay rates are being driven.

I went to the Job Centre with a mate of mine towards the end of last year when he'd lost his job and signed on for the first time.

I looked at the available jobs on the computer terminal. Almost the best paid among the few advertised was for a Santa and his helpers at the local department store. It was just above the minimum wage. I'm not joking, by the way.

He's a skilled man but he's competing against migrants who'll do the work for a fraction of the price. He can hardly pay his mortgage. He couldn't afford to get his car through the MOT so he took the tyres off to sell on Ebay and told the garage to keep the rest of the car.

He's always been a solid Labour man but he's very, very, pissed off. If he could have been arsed to vote today (and I very much doubt he bothered) he would have voted UKIP. If I was in his shoes I'd have probably done the same.

Similar story up here, lot of plumbers joiners etc would go south for 9/10 months of the year,but its all dried up now, courtesy of an influx of people who will work for even less than them.

 

[happie chappie]

Are employers flouting minimum wage legislation, or is he simply less skilled than he thinks?

You can come up and suggest he's less skilled than he thinks he is if you like, but I should warn you that you're liable to leave with fewer teeth than you started with.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Perhaps he's losing work to people who are less arsey than he is, then.