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Ukip - why are they gaining support?

This, people like BA say we are scaremongering, exaggerating, maybe some are, but the fact is the hard right is on the ascendant, the left is flailing and failing, they can't do that much when they are strong as in the 80's, but mow they can do even less to defend and work with those whose desperately need their help.
And these responses that are being criticised are both helping the populist right and utterly misunderstanding what is driving it - it's not a mass army of scrounger beaters, it's profoundly social-protectionist and shot though with all sorts of internal divisions. What the left have to do with this, i don't know. The fact is the left were already beaten on this ground due to their isolation from class issues and wider communities (despite their best intentions and work and commitment, individuals especially). SO the question now is about those communities and those class issues (which the left can play a key role in for sure) but not about the bloody left. Or bloody UKIP for that matter. That you picked out that bit of that post and ignored the rest of the SICKENING RANT is pretty shit comrade.
 
Electoral support? There were associations that did their best to convince the regime that they weren't like the other Jews but I am not sure that this translated to voting for them at the ballot box and I certainly don't think that Jews made up 16% of those voting for the Nazis (although they might have for other 'patriotic' parties)

As you surmise, public support didn't translate into anything like wholehearted electoral support. Arguably, post-'30, even the public support "withered on the vine", as acts of anti-semitism could no longer be passed off as "high spirits" on the part of individual Brownshirts.
The association Mr Ski mentions were a German equivalent to some of the middle-class dominating rightwing groupings we had between the wars - sort of a League of Empire Loyalists for German Jews, many of them veterans of WW1. Not wishing to labour a point, but the Jewish middle-classes in Germany engaged in wilful blindness with regard to the Nazi threat. Fuck, the Rabbinate even supported handing over Jewish birth, marriage and death records to the Nazis (thus enabling the Nazis to get a much clearer picture of German Jewry, and to target their liquidation more clearly).
 
As you surmise, public support didn't translate into anything like wholehearted electoral support. Arguably, post-'30, even the public support "withered on the vine", as acts of anti-semitism could no longer be passed off as "high spirits" on the part of individual Brownshirts.
The association Mr Ski mentions were a German equivalent to some of the middle-class dominating rightwing groupings we had between the wars - sort of a League of Empire Loyalists for German Jews, many of them veterans of WW1. Not wishing to labour a point, but the Jewish middle-classes in Germany engaged in wilful blindness with regard to the Nazi threat. Fuck, the Rabbinate even supported handing over Jewish birth, marriage and death records to the Nazis (thus enabling the Nazis to get a much clearer picture of German Jewry, and to target their liquidation more clearly).

There were also organizations for German Jews created and funded by the Nazis in order to control the population.

I don't think most Jews EVER supported the Nazis.
 
They were an irrelevant powerless far right imperial-militarist grouping who represented sweet FA. I can't believe that i'm having to argue this on the morning after UKIP top a euro election in the UK.

Oh come on! You know there's always a couple of hysterics who conflate any advance by the right with the rise of fascism and/or Nazism!
 
And these responses that are being criticised are both helping the populist right and utterly misunderstanding what is driving it - it's not a mass army of scrounger beaters, it's profoundly social-protectionist and shot though with all sorts of internal divisions. What the left have to do with this, i don't know. The fact is the left were already beaten on this ground due to their isolation from class issues and wider communities (despite their best intentions and work and commitment, individuals especially). SO the question now is about those communities and those class issues (which the left can play a key role in for sure) but not about the bloody left. Or bloody UKIP for that matter. That you picked out that bit of that post and ignored the rest of the SICKENING RANT is pretty shit comrade.

I wasn't directing my anger at Spiney or even you, for many people beyond this board life is becoming terrifying, it may have what you call 'social protectionist' elements in the party, but it also has fanatics like Akers in it, they imo will have a significant effect on policy in this country, changes that will hurt the poorest, etc.
 
This, people like BA say we are scaremongering, exaggerating, maybe some are, but the fact is the hard right is on the ascendant, the left is flailing and failing, they can't do that much when they are strong as in the 80's, but mow they can do even less to defend and work with those whose desperately need their help.

The problem is more to do with Labour than the left-wing. With the exception of sections of old Labour, Britain has never had a proper left-wing voice in parliament. Labour's position is now "we are not the Tories". That position is no longer credible, and even the old left core vote is disappearing. The left-wing has no money and is too divided to make a political force. Talk of "vanguard", "stalinism", etc whenever they try. Then you have other 'left-wing leaders', like George Galloway, who are just opportunists who use the left-wing, and other class dividing issues, as a way to show he is anti-establishment.
 
I wasn't directing my anger at Spiney or even you, for many people beyond this board life is becoming terrifying, it may have what you call 'social protectionist' elements in the party, but it also has fanatics like Akers in it, they imo will have a significant effect on policy in this country, changes that will hurt the poorest, etc.
They aren't the govt you know. They aren't even going to be in the next govt. The people doing all the things you hate are the mainstream parties. It's not UKIP.

And none of that response from you is anything to with my reply or my anger you endorsing that andy blokes SICKENING attack on me
 
Oh come on! You know there's always a couple of hysterics who conflate any advance by the right with the rise of fascism and/or Nazism!

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This, people like BA say we are scaremongering, exaggerating, maybe some are, but the fact is the hard right is on the ascendant, the left is flailing and failing, they can't do that much when they are strong as in the 80's, but mow they can do even less to defend and work with those whose desperately need their help.

If you're offering an inaccurate analysis that relies on hoary old banalities like referencing fascism and Nazism, and on reading racism as the primary motivation of both the party and those who've voted for them, then "scaremongering" and "exaggerating" is exactly what you're doing.
The key to addressing political problems is to analyse them neutrally, not to fall back on the old gobshitery that barely worked against the BNP and the EDL, when HnH and UAF tried them.
 
And these responses that are being criticised are both helping the populist right and utterly misunderstanding what is driving it - it's not a mass army of scrounger beaters, it's profoundly social-protectionist and shot though with all sorts of internal divisions. What the left have to do with this, i don't know. The fact is the left were already beaten on this ground due to their isolation from class issues and wider communities (despite their best intentions and work and commitment, individuals especially). SO the question now is about those communities and those class issues (which the left can play a key role in for sure) but not about the bloody left. Or bloody UKIP for that matter.

Not sure the 'left' (whoever they are) need to do anything. UKIP are just a spoiler. Interestingly, they constantly try and court the left-wing vote with talk of nationalisation, and other left-wing policies. Farage knows that is the only way they will move from an offshoot of the BNP to a credible national party (to a kind of British Guallism).

The problem with that strategy though is that they are mainly a bunch of racists, primarily attracting the votes of bigots. The fact is that the main parties will steal their policies (particularly their policy on Europe) and rural England ain't rural France.
 
If you're offering an inaccurate analysis that relies on hoary old banalities like referencing fascism and Nazism, and on reading racism as the primary motivation of both the party and those who've voted for them, then "scaremongering" and "exaggerating" is exactly what you're doing.
The key to addressing political problems is to analyse them neutrally, not to fall back on the old gobshitery that barely worked against the BNP and the EDL, when HnH and UAF tried them.

Eh, I've hardly posted on this thread, but my concern has been the impact of UKIP in pushing issues such as welfare even more to the right, I haven't even mentioned the Nazis, UKIP aren't fascists, never said they were. I have agreed with lots on here, spiney, etc, that calling them all these epithets is counter productive and the liberal types doing it are making things worse.
 
Not sure the 'left' (whoever they are) need to do anything. UKIP are just a spoiler. Interestingly, they constantly try and court the left-wing vote with talk of nationalisation, and other left-wing policies. Farage knows that is the only way they will move from an offshoot of the BNP to a credible national party (to a kind of British Guallism).

The problem with that strategy though is that they are mainly a bunch of racists, primarily attracting the votes of bigots. The fact is that the main parties will steal their policies (particularly their policy on Europe) and rural England ain't rural France.

They're not an offshoot of the BNP though are they?
 
The problem with that strategy though is that they are mainly a bunch of racists, primarily attracting the votes of bigots.

The second clause of that sentence is precisely the problem: dismissing all Kipper voters as 'bigots' isn't accurate, isn't fair, and gets in the way of a proper analysis of who is voting for them and why.

Tbh, too, living in a place where UKIP have just broken through and came top of the Euro poll, I resent the suggestion that I live amongst a crowd of bigots. I don't. Where I do live is in a relatively deprived city where the majority have been ignored and/or crapped upon by the political establishment and the modern economy alike, and who have quite understandably looked at the mainstream parties and said 'well, fuck you then.' I'd rather they didn't vote for UKIP and I think they're wrong, but tbh I don't think I can fairly blame a lot of them for having done so.
 
There were also organizations for German Jews created and funded by the Nazis in order to control the population.

Yep. They were very fond of state-sponsored organisations as a method of social control.

I don't think most Jews EVER supported the Nazis.

They didn't.
That's not to say there weren't a significant minority of German Jews who were vehement German nationalists, though. Because there were.
 
The second clause of that sentence is precisely the problem: dismissing all Kipper voters as 'bigots' isn't accurate, isn't fair, and gets in the way of a proper analysis of who is voting for them and why.

Tbh, too, living in a place where UKIP have just broken through and came top of the Euro poll, I resent the suggestion that I live amongst a crowd of bigots. I don't. Where I do live is in a relatively deprived city where the majority have been ignored and/or crapped upon by the political establishment and the modern economy alike, and who have quite understandably gone 'Well, fuck you then.' I'd rather they didn't vote for UKIP, but tbh I don't think I can fairly blame a lot of them for having done so.

It is pretty obvious UKIP have been trying to tap into anti-immigration sentiment and thrive on it. While I guess it is unfair to describe UKIP voters as bigots, a lot (probably the vast majority) vote for UKIP because of their stance on immigration.

I am quite happy to dismiss all Tory voters as cunts using similar logic.
 
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Interestingly, one of their candidates (or other promiment member) described the BNP as an offshoot, or something similar. I will try and dig out the interview... it was pretty recent.

wishful thinking, the BNP had a bad image with a 'respectable' right vote since always. UKIP have some fruits of the loon but not the hard white nat/BM/NF core
 
Eh, I've hardly posted on this thread, but my concern has been the impact of UKIP in pushing issues such as welfare even more to the right, I haven't even mentioned the Nazis, UKIP aren't fascists, never said they were. I have agreed with lots on here, spiney, etc, that calling them all these epithets is counter productive and the liberal types doing it are making things worse.

Just because I'm replying to your post, doesn't automatically mean I'm only going to adress your own view, but also the views of those who share the basic premises illustrated in your post. It doesn't matter that you as an individual don't mention or believe such things. It does matter that your fellow liberal-leftists are running with such narratives.
 
It is pretty obvious UKIP have been trying to tap into anti-immigration sentiment and thrive on it. While I guess it is unfair to describe UKIP voters as bigots, a lot (probably the vast majority) vote for UKIP because of their stance on immigration.

But it's not fair to suggest that everyone with concerns about immigration is a racist or a bigot, and it's counter-productive to do so. It didn't work with the BNP, and it's not working with UKIP either: if anything, it's just allowed them to burnish their (ridiculous) 'anti-establishment' credentials.
 
I must admit I didn't check last night (looks like you need to register with your full name and address details) but I agree a billion seems high.

Still, I imagine the City would be willing to pay a lot to avoid EU imposed regulation on their criminal / irresponsible / anti-social behaviors.

Yeah, sorry, it was late - £1m. Greens were £700k. It's probably gone up in the last three years.
 
But it's not fair to suggest that everyone with concerns about immigration is a racist or a bigot, and it's counter-productive to do so. It didn't work with the BNP, and it's not working with UKIP either: if anything, it's just allowed them to burnish their (ridiculous) 'anti-establishment' credentials.

UKIP are anti-establishment. The image only works in so far as they are anti-immigration, and the Tories presenting them as a bunch of reputable, misguided toffs
 
Interestingly, one of their candidates (or other promiment member) described the BNP as an offshoot, or something similar. I will try and dig out the interview... it was pretty recent.

The BNP was a recrudescence of elements of the NF into a more "socially-acceptable" form, culminating in Griffin's attempts at "new"/Euro-rightism and electoral politics. The BNP aren't an offshoot of UKIP, and UKIP aren't an offshoot of the BNP. UKIP is the child of the joining of the Referendum Party and the Libertarian Alliance.
 
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