butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Who is the real nazi in this so called society?
Ukip - why are they gaining support?
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isvicthere?
a.k.a. floppybollocks
Well, my Mum reads the DM, and she thinks Stewart Lee is "not funny". So your point is compelling.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And these responses that are being criticised are both helping the populist right and utterly misunderstanding what is driving it - it's not a mass army of scrounger beaters, it's profoundly social-protectionist and shot though with all sorts of internal divisions. What the left have to do with this, i don't know. The fact is the left were already beaten on this ground due to their isolation from class issues and wider communities (despite their best intentions and work and commitment, individuals especially). SO the question now is about those communities and those class issues (which the left can play a key role in for sure) but not about the bloody left. Or bloody UKIP for that matter. That you picked out that bit of that post and ignored the rest of the SICKENING RANT is pretty shit comrade.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
As you surmise, public support didn't translate into anything like wholehearted electoral support. Arguably, post-'30, even the public support "withered on the vine", as acts of anti-semitism could no longer be passed off as "high spirits" on the part of individual Brownshirts.
The association Mr Ski mentions were a German equivalent to some of the middle-class dominating rightwing groupings we had between the wars - sort of a League of Empire Loyalists for German Jews, many of them veterans of WW1. Not wishing to labour a point, but the Jewish middle-classes in Germany engaged in wilful blindness with regard to the Nazi threat. Fuck, the Rabbinate even supported handing over Jewish birth, marriage and death records to the Nazis (thus enabling the Nazis to get a much clearer picture of German Jewry, and to target their liquidation more clearly).
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
There were also organizations for German Jews created and funded by the Nazis in order to control the population.
I don't think most Jews EVER supported the Nazis.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Oh come on! You know there's always a couple of hysterics who conflate any advance by the right with the rise of fascism and/or Nazism!
I wasn't directing my anger at Spiney or even you, for many people beyond this board life is becoming terrifying, it may have what you call 'social protectionist' elements in the party, but it also has fanatics like Akers in it, they imo will have a significant effect on policy in this country, changes that will hurt the poorest, etc.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
The problem is more to do with Labour than the left-wing. With the exception of sections of old Labour, Britain has never had a proper left-wing voice in parliament. Labour's position is now "we are not the Tories". That position is no longer credible, and even the old left core vote is disappearing. The left-wing has no money and is too divided to make a political force. Talk of "vanguard", "stalinism", etc whenever they try. Then you have other 'left-wing leaders', like George Galloway, who are just opportunists who use the left-wing, and other class dividing issues, as a way to show he is anti-establishment.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
They aren't the govt you know. They aren't even going to be in the next govt. The people doing all the things you hate are the mainstream parties. It's not UKIP.
And none of that response from you is anything to with my reply or my anger you endorsing that andy blokes SICKENING attack on me
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
If you're offering an inaccurate analysis that relies on hoary old banalities like referencing fascism and Nazism, and on reading racism as the primary motivation of both the party and those who've voted for them, then "scaremongering" and "exaggerating" is exactly what you're doing.
The key to addressing political problems is to analyse them neutrally, not to fall back on the old gobshitery that barely worked against the BNP and the EDL, when HnH and UAF tried them.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Not sure the 'left' (whoever they are) need to do anything. UKIP are just a spoiler. Interestingly, they constantly try and court the left-wing vote with talk of nationalisation, and other left-wing policies. Farage knows that is the only way they will move from an offshoot of the BNP to a credible national party (to a kind of British Guallism).
The problem with that strategy though is that they are mainly a bunch of racists, primarily attracting the votes of bigots. The fact is that the main parties will steal their policies (particularly their policy on Europe) and rural England ain't rural France.
Eh, I've hardly posted on this thread, but my concern has been the impact of UKIP in pushing issues such as welfare even more to the right, I haven't even mentioned the Nazis, UKIP aren't fascists, never said they were. I have agreed with lots on here, spiney, etc, that calling them all these epithets is counter productive and the liberal types doing it are making things worse.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
They're not an offshoot of the BNP though are they?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Potential leadership advisor in fact.Andy says, are you honestly accusing BA as being a UKIP supporter?
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Interestingly, one of their candidates (or other promiment member) described the BNP as an offshoot, or something similar. I will try and dig out the interview... it was pretty recent.
The second clause of that sentence is precisely the problem: dismissing all Kipper voters as 'bigots' isn't accurate, isn't fair, and gets in the way of a proper analysis of who is voting for them and why.
Tbh, too, living in a place where UKIP have just broken through and came top of the Euro poll, I resent the suggestion that I live amongst a crowd of bigots. I don't. Where I do live is in a relatively deprived city where the majority have been ignored and/or crapped upon by the political establishment and the modern economy alike, and who have quite understandably looked at the mainstream parties and said 'well, fuck you then.' I'd rather they didn't vote for UKIP and I think they're wrong, but tbh I don't think I can fairly blame a lot of them for having done so.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yep. They were very fond of state-sponsored organisations as a method of social control.
They didn't.
That's not to say there weren't a significant minority of German Jews who were vehement German nationalists, though. Because there were.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
It is pretty obvious UKIP have been trying to tap into anti-immigration sentiment and thrive on it. While I guess it is unfair to describe UKIP voters as bigots, a lot (probably the vast majority) vote for UKIP because of their stance on immigration.
I am quite happy to dismiss all Tory voters as cunts using similar logic.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
wishful thinking, the BNP had a bad image with a 'respectable' right vote since always. UKIP have some fruits of the loon but not the hard white nat/BM/NF core
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Just because I'm replying to your post, doesn't automatically mean I'm only going to adress your own view, but also the views of those who share the basic premises illustrated in your post. It doesn't matter that you as an individual don't mention or believe such things. It does matter that your fellow liberal-leftists are running with such narratives.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
Sorry, one of their candidates did say something to that effect (the video is in the link). They also publicly stated sympathy for the EDL.
http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/05/09/ukip-spokesman-calls-on-far-right-party-to-join-them/
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Did you read the whole thing? The Lord Monckton was effectively kicked out last year as well.
But it's not fair to suggest that everyone with concerns about immigration is a racist or a bigot, and it's counter-productive to do so. It didn't work with the BNP, and it's not working with UKIP either: if anything, it's just allowed them to burnish their (ridiculous) 'anti-establishment' credentials.
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
Yeah, sorry, it was late - £1m. Greens were £700k. It's probably gone up in the last three years.
DairyQueen
Well-Known Member
UKIP are anti-establishment. The image only works in so far as they are anti-immigration, and the Tories presenting them as a bunch of reputable, misguided toffs
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
The BNP was a recrudescence of elements of the NF into a more "socially-acceptable" form, culminating in Griffin's attempts at "new"/Euro-rightism and electoral politics. The BNP aren't an offshoot of UKIP, and UKIP aren't an offshoot of the BNP. UKIP is the child of the joining of the Referendum Party and the Libertarian Alliance.
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