Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[Awesome Wells]

You can be sure their new councillors and MEPs will have been told this. Whether they'll listen, or follow Farage's snout into the trough, is another matter. In fact IMO one thing that might well hamper the party in the coming years is that the quality of its councillors won't be all that good, and there'll be a few resignations and sackings, as well as some disillusionment when the anti-political candidate people voted for turns out to be just another self-interested politician who doesn't turn up to council meetings. Hopefully some of that will start to emerge well before the general election.

I think quite@few of their supporters respect them for 'playing the system'; Paul nuttalls is quite open about the fact he doesn't do his job as an mep properly. In his mind not bothering to attend yet get paid helps the party achieve its goal of bringing down the EU.

 

[Awesome Wells]

Something like 16% of UKIP supporters are from ethnic minorities, higher than most other political parties. The Nazis always had antisemitism as one of the main features of their ideology; they were way beyond even a group like the BNP. I doubt that 16% of their support was from other ethnic groups in Germany.

It's starting to really annoy me when people call UKIP fascist. Do you really think they're like a party like Golden Dawn in Greece or Right Sector in Ukraine?

Then what are they?

 

[Pickman's model]

I've said no such thing. I've said that about ukip, I don't think I be said that about their voters. Nor have I ignored everything else. In fact I've just said why people (or at least the majority) vote this way; because of the media. The right wing media in this country has reinforced everything that would compel them to vote ukip. This is combined with their position currently as being seen as free from the taint of being in the system gives them an appeal to disillusioned voters who haven't been given a chance to properly consider a genuine alternative.

how would you say that a party with more than 150 cllrs is not 'in the system'?

 

[J Ed]

Then what are they?

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/characterising-ukip.323917/

 

[frogwoman]

Then what are they?

They're a party slightly to the right of the Tories.

 

[butchersapron]

A coalition of neo-liberal ideologues, empire loyalists, left behind working class protectionists and those for whom neo-liberalism proper is and hasn't worked, those without the financial or cultural capital to succeed and so are worthless to the main parties except as voting fodder every few years. They are not fascists ffs. Less are they nazis.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

must be an error.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11901914

Yeah, Electoral Commission shows it as a million-odd for the last year they have figures.

http://www.electoralcommission.org....s/political-parties-annual-accounts/2012#UKIP

Which is actually suspiciously low, given the amount of PR effort actually visible in the last few weeks.

 

[isvicthere?]

My mistake, I always thought that those pesky Vikings had harassed them nasty Romans. What were those Vikings doing for four hundred years?

For those who like history neatly packaged, you can "date" the Vikings from 793, when they first attacked England, to 1066, when they got their arses kicked by the English at (I think) Stamford Bridge. It was the fact that this was a few days before the Norman invasion, and the tired English army had to march south, and fight on a second front, that mainly enabled the Norman Conquest.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, Electoral Commission shows it as a million-odd for the last year they have figures.

http://www.electoralcommission.org....s/political-parties-annual-accounts/2012#UKIP

Which is actually suspiciously low, given the amount of PR effort actually visible in the last few weeks.

it's amazing what a british journalist will print for a half bottle of wine

 

[goldenecitrone]

For those who like history neatly packaged, you can "date" the Vikings from 793, when they first attacked England, to 1066, when they got their arses kicked by the English at (I think) Stamford Bridge. It was the fact that this was a few days before the Norman invasion, and the tired English army had to march south, and fight on a second front, that mainly enabled the Norman Conquest.

Only a small component of the army marched south. Harold called up soldiers from the regions as he went along.

 

[Awesome Wells]

What characterises parties like golden dawn, is it physical violence? OK ukip don't start riots and assault people, but what about their members who want to shot gays or deport black comedians? Is that really any different?

If such people are the exception then do they represent a silent majority, why does the leadership never seem to be able to get a grip on these people? When James O'Brien confronted farage with the shot gays tweet farages response should have been way more decurve and emphatic, but all they do is brush it off and play it down. That suggests to me the real crime, in the eyes of the party, isn't a disgusting hateful comment that wouldn't seem out of place in golden dawn, but getting caught saying it.

 

[isvicthere?]

Only a small component of the army marched south. Harold called up soldiers from the regions as he went along.

Indeed. Nevertheless, fighting a war two or three hundred miles to the north couldn't have been the best way to prepare for an imminent invasion.

 

[butchersapron]

Could then say why you think the above is sufficient to characterises UKIP as fascist wells?

 

[MrSki]

Something like 16% of UKIP supporters are from ethnic minorities, higher than most other political parties. The Nazis always had antisemitism as one of the main features of their ideology; they were way beyond even a group like the BNP. I doubt that 16% of their support was from other ethnic groups in Germany.

It's starting to really annoy me when people call UKIP fascist. Do you really think they're like a party like Golden Dawn in Greece or Right Sector in Ukraine?

I don't know what the percentage vote was but the Association of German National Jews supported the Nazi party until it was too late.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Indeed. Nevertheless, fighting a war two or three hundred miles to the north couldn't have been the best way to prepare for an imminent invasion.

Winning the first battle certainly had an effect. The blood was up and Harold rushed into the second battle instead of waiting to draw the Normans away from their supply lines.

 

[treelover]

Definitely not. A worrying lurch to the right across the country.

For those who are vulnerable like claimants and disabled, this is a very very worrying time, fucking Tim Akers, the 'odd' extreme libertarian urbanites laughed and laughed at, is now an MEP, ffs..

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is it?

Were the Germans who elected him in 1933 thinking about the gas chambers?

You do realise that Hitler wasn't "elected", right (28% in the 1933 elections, down from 30% in the previous election)? You are aware that he got the Chancellorship because von Papen and Hindenberg thought they could use Hitler, and "fold" the NSDAP into their own political agenda?

Who knows what the future holds. What are UKIP building their support on?

Currently, given the lack of policy, on an amorphous mix of anti-immigration and old-style Toryism.

 

[Roadkill]

I think quite@few of their supporters respect them for 'playing the system'

I suspect far more of them just aren't all that interested and don't know. Nor will they ever, in all likelihood, in the case of MEPS, unless there's some kind of scandal about it. In terms of councillors, though, that's closer to home and local media and politico types will hopefully be pretty quick to pick up on malfeasance or incompetence amongst them.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't know what the percentage vote was but the Association of German National Jews supported the Nazi party until it was too late.

Electoral support? There were associations that did their best to convince the regime that they weren't like the other Jews but I am not sure that this translated to voting for them at the ballot box and I certainly don't think that Jews made up 16% of those voting for the Nazis (although they might have for other 'patriotic' parties)

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've said no such thing. I've said that about ukip, I don't think I be said that about their voters. Nor have I ignored everything else. In fact I've just said why people (or at least the majority) vote this way; because of the media. The right wing media in this country has reinforced everything that would compel them to vote ukip. This is combined with their position currently as being seen as free from the taint of being in the system gives them an appeal to disillusioned voters who haven't been given a chance to properly consider a genuine alternative.

Ever noticed how it's never you at fault, it's always someone else misreading or misrepresenting you?

 

[butchersapron]

I don't know what the percentage vote was but the Association of German National Jews supported the Nazi party until it was too late.

They were an irrelevant powerless far right imperial-militarist grouping who represented sweet FA. I can't believe that i'm having to argue this on the morning after UKIP top a euro election in the UK.

 

[treelover]

Lot of tantrums on here since UKIP-month started aren't there?

Its the smell of failure,

 

[ViolentPanda]

Something like 16% of UKIP supporters are from ethnic minorities, higher than most other political parties.

Mostly British-born BMEs, though.

The Nazis always had antisemitism as one of the main features of their ideology; they were way beyond even a group like the BNP. I doubt that 16% of their support was from other ethnic groups in Germany.

The NSDAP also derived a lot of early financial support and membership from people of other nationalities: Italians, Swiss, Czechs, Danes and more who were German-speakers and what Hitler classed as ethnic Germans. About 40% of the upper heirarchy of the party in '33 were ethic Germans rather than born in Germany.
So on Mr Ski's terms, the NSDAP are less and less like UKIP with every single historical fact we unpack about them.

 

[SpineyNorman]

What characterises parties like golden dawn, is it physical violence? OK ukip don't start riots and assault people, but what about their members who want to shot gays or deport black comedians? Is that really any different?

If such people are the exception then do they represent a silent majority, why does the leadership never seem to be able to get a grip on these people? When James O'Brien confronted farage with the shot gays tweet farages response should have been way more decurve and emphatic, but all they do is brush it off and play it down. That suggests to me the real crime, in the eyes of the party, isn't a disgusting hateful comment that wouldn't seem out of place in golden dawn, but getting caught saying it.

How's that any different from the old tory right? Were they fascists?

 

[Ax^]

stewart lee now the nazis

hmms

 

[treelover]

That routine has absolutely fuck all to do with Hillborough, and the fact that you are so certain it does says far more about you and your anti-liberal-middle-class-metropolitan-sandal-wearing-humus-eating-cunt prejudice than about Stewart Lee or anything else.

It plays on the long standing comic stereotype of scousers as whiney, insular and complaining, which has been around for at least forty years that I can remember and probably longer (ie long before Hillsborough). I got the impression he was using that stereotype to send it up, though maybe not.

And whether it was an effective critique on UKIP is open to question, probably not as you and others seem to be taking the position that when a stuck up too clever for his own good comedian makes a joke about UKIP you don't like, it makes you more sympathetic to them and more likely to support them. This is not a coherent political response, but unfortunately this seems to be a significant source of support for UKIP, the knee jerk populist hate response, including from people like you who, with your professed proper political understanding, should know better.

I think you are right, Boris Johson made that sort of accusation, a sentimental city, living in the past, then before that was a major media attack on the city about ten years ago as well, accusing Liverpudlians of not being able to let go, whining, etc. Lee is perhaps to clever for his own good, but I'm sure he would never allude to the HJC as just about seeking compo.

 

[frogwoman]

Mostly British-born BMEs, though.



The NSDAP also derived a lot of early financial support and membership from people of other nationalities: Italians, Swiss, Czechs, Danes and more who were German-speakers and what Hitler classed as ethnic Germans. About 40% of the upper heirarchy of the party in '33 were ethic Germans rather than born in Germany.
So on Mr Ski's terms, the NSDAP are less and less like UKIP with every single historical fact we unpack about them.

Exactly because of their view of reuniting with greater German lands with 'ethnic Germans' in them. UKIP don't as far as I am aware have territorial claims on the whole of southern Ireland for example

 

[Awesome Wells]

Ever noticed how it's never you at fault, it's always someone else misreading or misrepresenting you?

No, I notice when people are misrepresenting me.

 

[seventh bullet]

stewart lee now the nazis

hmms

Actually, you're a Nazi if you don't like Stewart Lee's jokes.

 

[treelover]

Another knee-jerk hate-filled response, which merely illustrates that you haven't read properly what you're responding to. If only you were as perceptive as you think you are.

Still looking forward to the turmoil, butchers?

All UKIP are doing is exploiting the understandable anger and fear people have, and turning it into hate.

You're full of the same anger, fear and hate, and although you shout like a big brave man on the internet, you're powerless and irrelevent, and deep down you know it. All this posturing is just compensation...

Populist whipping up of anger fear and hate may lead to turmoil, but there's no way the impotent raging left, which you unfortunately epitomise, will be able to make any headway against it.

Keep wanking along to your election returns - maybe if you ask Nigel nicely he'll give you a job as an adviser or analyst.

This, people like BA say we are scaremongering, exaggerating, maybe some are, but the fact is the hard right is on the ascendant, the left is flailing and failing, they can't do that much when they are strong as in the 80's, but mow they can do even less to defend and work with those whose desperately need their help.