Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[DairyQueen]

What, so people like ex-businessman and former Tory MEP Roger Helmer are anti-establishment?

He is still a homophobe arguing for reduced sentences on rape and climate sceptic. And as you imply one of their more 'reputable' members; someone that can go on the BBC and give interviews, for example.

 

[treelover]

ENGLAND PREVAILS!

where is that from?

Ever seen the 1930's set 'Richard The Third' with Ian Mckellen?

 

[ViolentPanda]

ENGLAND PREVAILS!

There's something about Sam Browne belts that make me want to get stabby.

 

[DotCommunist]

the media didn't make all them people go out and vote UKIP though.

I hear you on the one that the state is happier to advertise its activities in disrupting the far right cos everyone hates nazis etc. but seems less able to discuss or boast about state surveillance on left of labour orgs

 

[DotCommunist]

where is that from?

Ever seen the 1930's set 'Richard The Third' with Ian Mckellen?

it's 'V is for Vendetta' where a fascist tendency within the tory party have managed to seize control and become a dictatorship because of outside events.

 

[chilango]

I don't find the portrayal of a party to the right of the Tories, with millionaire backers, led by the wealthy, Dulwich College-educated son of a millionaire stockbroker as 'anti-establishment' very convincing, frankly.

My guess is that few actually believe that Farage and UKIP are really anti-establishment.

But...that given the widespread media narrative that a UKIP surge is a protest against the establishment that people are prepared to play along with the myth making because that narrative suits their desires to protest the establishment,

An instinctive understanding that in the spectacle of electoral performance that you're getting to pick from a range of pre- packaged storylines.

People aren't stupid.

 

[butchersapron]

Tell the people about the greens, then the people will like the greens
Don't tell people about UKIP or they'll like UKIP.

This sort of media-centred vanguardism, almost authoritarianism in it assumptions and aims, doesn't say much for your belief in the capabilities of the mass of people really taffers. In fact, it's pretty hideously elitist - and closer to mid 20th century models of fascist media manipulation.

And of course the reality being when:
Tell the people how shit UKIP are and the people will learn

turns out to be that the people actually understand and reject the media/politician manipulation of them, then this miraculously throws up precisely no problems or question over your model.

 

[DairyQueen]

the media didn't make all them people go out and vote UKIP though.

I hear you on the one that the state is happier to advertise its activities in disrupting the far right cos everyone hates nazis etc. but seems less able to discuss or boast about state surveillance on left of labour orgs

The state are happy to talk about immigration because it has political ramifications, and it is a social issue that pundits actually understand (immigration is up this quarter). No-one in the media understands the technical discussions on intellectual property, state surveillance or even environmental issues.

 

[Mr Moose]

ENGLAND PREVAILS!

I could see Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen, whilst disapproving the politics, liking the decor

 

[Roadkill]

He is still a homophobe arguing for reduced sentences on rape and climate sceptic. And as you imply one of their more 'reputable' members; someone that can go on the BBC and give interviews, for example.

So he's a homophobe, a misogynist and an idiot. I agree. But none of those things make him 'anti-establishment.'

My guess is that few actually believe that Farage and UKIP are really anti-establishment.

But...that given the widespread media narrative that a UKIP surge is a protest against the establishment that people are prepared to play along with the myth making because that narrative suits their desires to protest the establishment

An instinctive understanding that in the spectacle of electoral performance that you're getting to pick from a range of pre- packaged storylines.

People aren't stupid.

I agree. Part of the problem, though, is liberals talking down to them as if they are!

 

[Mr Moose]

So he's a homophobe, a misogynist and an idiot. I agree. But none of those things make him 'anti-establishment.'



I agree. Part of the problem, though, is liberals talking down to them as if they are!

Oh do give it a rest. Surely this angle has been done to death or do you need to talk down to everyone else?

 

[DairyQueen]

So he's a homophobe, a misogynist and an idiot. I agree. But none of those things make him 'anti-establishment.'

The Tories were not misogynist, idiotic or homophobic enough for his tastes.

 

[agricola]

The state are happy to talk about immigration because it has political ramifications, and it is a social issue that pundits actually understand (immigration is up this quarter). No-one in the media understands the technical discussions on intellectual property, state surveillance or even environmental issues.

Very few in politics understands them either.

 

[DairyQueen]

Tell the people about the greens, then the people will like the greens
Don't tell people about UKIP or they'll like UKIP.

This sort of media-centred vanguardism, almost authoritarianism in it assumptions and aims, doesn't say much for your belief in the capabilities of the mass of people really taffers. In fact, it's pretty hideously elitist - and closer to mid 20th century models of fascist media manipulation.

And of course the reality being when:
Tell the people how shit UKIP are and the people will learn

turns out to be that the people actually understand and reject the media/politician manipulation of them, then this miraculously throws up precisely no problems or question over your model.

But surely the net effect of all the major parties/media talking up immigration since the EU15 accession has had an effect on popular opinion/debate?

 

[Roadkill]

Oh do give it a rest. Surely this angle has been done to death or do you need to talk down to everyone else?

Eh? I'm not talking down to anyone - just agreeing with chilango and disagreeing mildly with DairyQueen, although in the latter case I'm mindful of ViolentPanda's point about 'anti-establishment' being a vague term and I think we're basically talking past one another rather than really disagreeing.

 

[butchersapron]

But surely the net effect of all the major parties/media talking up immigration since the EU15 accession has had an effect on popular opinion/debate?

Of course it does. In the ridiculous crude way that taffboy imagines, the media obsession, the lack of faith in people to come to their own conclusions based on their own experience, reasoning and interests? No.

 

[Mr Moose]

Eh? I'm not talking down to anyone - just agreeing with chilango and disagreeing mildly with DairyQueen, although in the latter case I'm mindful of ViolentPanda's point about 'anti-establishment' being a vague term and I think we're basically talking past one another rather than really disagreeing.

My bad perhaps, soz. I'm just getting tired of the endless 'let's blame the 'liberal elite' for attacking UKIP. I don't disagree with it fundamentally, but I think it's becoming a cul-de-sac.

 

[Roadkill]

My bad perhaps, soz. I'm just getting tired of the endless 'let's blame the 'liberal elite' for attacking UKIP. I don't disagree with it fundamentally, but I think it's becoming a cul-de-sac.

Fair enough.

 

[DotCommunist]

its not 'lets blame the liberal elite' but more 'look at how they do, ineptly, when faced with politics that challenge centrist grounds even a little'

 

[DairyQueen]

Who are the British "liberal elites" anyway? The elite in this country are a bunch of right-wing cunts with a few crusty, equally conservative old Labour-types armed with nothing but a bunch of soundbites peppered about to give the illusion of plurality. I am of the opinion that a lot of people are stupid evidenced by voting patterns in Britain since the 1980s. Nothing liberal or elitist about that.

 

[DotCommunist]

there is a huge liberal elite in this country and has always been since whiggism and beyond.

 

[chilango]

I am of the opinion that a lot of people are stupid evidenced by voting patterns in Britain since the 1980s. Nothing liberal or elitist about that.

Go on...explain this.

 

[DairyQueen]

Go on...explain this.

The sentence is not liberal. I am not a fucking whig debating the Corn Laws (Dot Communist's definition).

Neither am I advocating some ruling class be created based on party membership (unlike the conservatives, (to a lesser extent) Lib Dem and Labour). I just think a lot of people are stupid for the way they vote.

 

[SpineyNorman]

The sentence is not liberal. I am not a fucking whig debating the Corn Laws (Dot Communist's definition).

Neither am I advocating some ruling class be created based on party membership (unlike the conservatives, (to a lesser extent) Lib Dem and Labour). I just think a lot of people are stupid for the way they vote.

They couldn't possibly just disagree with you could they? Nope - must just be stupid.

 

[SpineyNorman]

The elite in this country are a bunch of right-wing cunts with a few crusty, equally conservative old Labour-types armed with nothing but a bunch of soundbites peppered about to give the illusion of plurality.

liberals then

 

[andysays]

Andy says, are you honestly accusing BA as being a UKIP supporter?

BA has consistently attacked most people criticising UKIP, allegedly because they're criticising them the wrong way (which I agree many people are) but, despite saying he has, he has consistently failed to really criticise them himself.

He has consistently suggested that he sees their rise as indicative of some positive political or social development, but has consistently failed to explain what he actually means by this.

And he has consistently celebrated every poll and electoral result which indicates them doing well, and praised the way they've conducted themselves as compared to the mainstream parties.

Here is perhaps the nearest he comes to explaining his position (off the Farage humiliated by LBC interview thread)

@butchersapron what would you suggest saying to a voter who was considering voting UKIP, if you were trying to persuade them not to and to vote for someone else?

What, in your opinion, is the strongest and most persuasive criticism of UKIP as a political option?

I'd say vote for them.

Are you saying that you would be *unable* to construct an argument to try and persuade someone not to vote UKIP?
On what basis politically speaking would you suggest someone vote UKIP?
What would this achieve? What positive impact would it make towards anything?

1) of course i could
2) to annoy people - to put the tories into serious panic before the GE
3) To encourage political turmoil.

Results that you can only get by voting UKIP.

More people supporting UKIP means UK politics moving towards the right doesn't it?

Wouldn't it be preferable to see politics move towards the left, for example with more people voting Green, TUSC, Plaid Cymru or similar?

What do you hope and/or expect to emerge from this 'political turmoil'?

No

Yes (but not those people)

Turmoil

The point? Turmoil. I like the main parties not knowing how to respond to people openly telling them to fuck off. I like what i suggests about what is going on socially. Why do you need to put a point/hope/expectation on this?

But obviously nothing about what he thinks it suggests about what is going on socially, or where this turmoil will lead. Just "vote UKIP for turmoil". Someone else later in that thread describes this as the position of a teenage nihilist. I think it's the position of a sad middle aged nihilist who is filled with hate and who recognises deep down that for all his reading and all his supposed erudition, he is an impotent irrelevance who actually has absolutely zero influence on anything.

It looks to me like he's given up on a pro-working class politics and he's left with, presumably, a vague hope that the three main neo-liberal anti-working class parties can be brought down in a state of turmoil as a result of people voting for a different neo-liberal anti-working class party. And he still claims that this is some sort of coherent political position which everyone else here is too stupid to see, the cunts.

So he may not be a supporter in the sense of going out canvassing for them, or even voting for them, but his support in the sense of wanting them to do well (if not the reasons for this support) has been apparent on various threads for weeks.

 

[andysays]

Potential leadership advisor in fact.

Strictly minor league, I'm afraid

 

[SpookyFrank]

Given the context in which you mention them, it's difficult to conclude anything else, but by all means try to deflect from your own contempt by accusing me of the same!

I was talking about people who are easily swayed by canvassers. If canvassers exclusively targetting the working class is a real phenomenon it's one I've never noticed.

 

[hipipol]

Of course it does. In the ridiculous crude way that taffboy imagines, the media obsession, the lack of faith in people to come to their own conclusions based on their own experience, reasoning and interests? No.

This would be a valid point were it not obvious that very few people bother to engage their heads
With a turnout of 35/6% a small number of motivated and bitter people can get idiots into power
Equally people can only make a reasoned decision based on the information they are given.
How often is that information true?
ALL the political parties are guilty of trivializing the electorate by reducing their positions to miniscule soundbites and NO explanation of why any decision is made
Its not insulting anyone to say the current way of doing biz simply gives the power to those who manipulate "their" sheep the best

 

[brogdale]

BA has consistently attacked most people criticising UKIP, allegedly because they're criticising them the wrong way (which I agree many people are) but, despite saying he has, he has consistently failed to really criticise them himself.

He has consistently suggested that he sees their rise as indicative of some positive political or social development, but has consistently failed to explain what he actually means by this.

And he has consistently celebrated every poll and electoral result which indicates them doing well, and praised the way they've conducted themselves as compared to the mainstream parties.

Here is perhaps the nearest he comes to explaining his position (off the Farage humiliated by LBC interview thread)















But obviously nothing about what he thinks it suggests about what is going on socially, or where this turmoil will lead. Just "vote UKIP for turmoil". Someone else later in that thread describes this as the position of a teenage nihilist. I think it's the position of a sad middle aged nihilist who is filled with hate and who recognises deep down that for all his reading and all his supposed erudition, he is an impotent irrelevance who actually has absolutely zero influence on anything.

It looks to me like he's given up on a pro-working class politics and he's left with, presumably, a vague hope that the three main neo-liberal anti-working class parties can be brought down in a state of turmoil as a result of people voting for a different neo-liberal anti-working class party. And he still claims that this is some sort of coherent political position which everyone else here is too stupid to see, the cunts.

So he may not be a supporter in the sense of going out canvassing for them, or even voting for them, but his support in the sense of wanting them to do well (if not the reasons for this support) has been apparent on various threads for weeks.

Working class politics can only be mediated through political parties?