Ukip - why are they gaining support?

[killer b]

FWIW I don't think Stewart Lee hates scousers, I think it was a poorly considered rhetorical device. But it was a device he wouldn't have used against a different target. And I'm not convinced it's a reference to Hillsborough, although I can see how it could be read that way (and considering the way the whiny scousers meme has become wrapped up with Hillsborough over the years, another reason to avoid).

 

[SpineyNorman]

That routine has absolutely fuck all to do with Hillborough, and the fact that you are so certain it does says far more about you and your anti-liberal-middle-class-metropolitan-sandal-wearing-humus-eating-cunt prejudice than about Stewart Lee or anything else.

It plays on the long standing comic stereotype of scousers as whiney, insular and complaining, which has been around for at least forty years that I can remember and probably longer (ie long before Hillsborough). I got the impression he was using that stereotype to send it up, though maybe not.

And whether it was an effective critique on UKIP is open to question, probably not as you and others seem to be taking the position that when a stuck up too clever for his own good comedian makes a joke about UKIP you don't like, it makes you more sympathetic to them and more likely to support them. This is not a coherent political response, but unfortunately this seems to be a significant source of support for UKIP, the knee jerk populist hate response, including from people like you who, with your professed proper political understanding, should know better.

Fuck off you sanctimonious cunt. You're miles off too - I used to quite like Stewart lee, before this I had no real axe to grind with him.

It's the words 'profit from' that are key here. If you don't see how that taps into myths around Hillsborough that's your problem and not mine.

You can fuck off with the implication that they're making me 'more likely to support UKIP' too.

 

[SpineyNorman]

So, by effectively, you really mean not at all.

No. I mean your responses to any kind of criticism of Stewart lee - you know, the ones where you say, 'yeah he should take the piss out of darkies or something you'd like that more'.

Don't you think you've embarrassed yourself enough on this thread?

 

[JTG]

FWIW I don't think Stewart Lee hates scousers, I think it was a poorly considered rhetorical device. But it was a device he wouldn't have used against a different target. And I'm not convinced it's a reference to Hillsborough, although I can see how it could be read that way (and considering the way the whiny scousers meme has become wrapped up with Hillsborough over the years, another reason to avoid).

Close enough to my view that

 

[butchersapron]

That routine has absolutely fuck all to do with Hillborough, and the fact that you are so certain it does says far more about you and your anti-liberal-middle-class-metropolitan-sandal-wearing-humus-eating-cunt prejudice than about Stewart Lee or anything else.

It plays on the long standing comic stereotype of scousers as whiney, insular and complaining, which has been around for at least forty years that I can remember and probably longer (ie long before Hillsborough). I got the impression he was using that stereotype to send it up, though maybe not.

And whether it was an effective critique on UKIP is open to question, probably not as you and others seem to be taking the position that when a stuck up too clever for his own good comedian makes a joke about UKIP you don't like, it makes you more sympathetic to them and more likely to support them. This is not a coherent political response, but unfortunately this seems to be a significant source of support for UKIP, the knee jerk populist hate response, including from people like you who, with your professed proper political understanding, should know better.

Note the slip from def not in the first para to well maybe it did, it's just what i think in the second. And a genuine example of the sort of crude stereotyping employed by Lee in the third. Is that you Stew? Note also, another example of the blossoming tantrum genre.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Yeah he can't have done something bad because he's one of the good guys so if he appears to be saying something bad it must really be something good, we just need to work out how.

There is a (thankfully declining) myth that the hillsborough campaign is all about compensation - and it's often couched in terms of profiting from talking about the past in a really whiny voice. It's hardly a giant leap is it? I don't see how the comments make sense otherwise.

Well, you think he's one of the bad guys, so it must mean something bad, just need to work it out

 

[butchersapron]

Well, you think he's one of the bad guys, so it must mean something bad, just need to work it out

And here we get, well i like him, i'm great, so he must have meant something else. And this from a liverpool fan as well. Actually, this is an example of the suarez plausible deniability excuse - call someone a racially abusive term then pretend it wasn't about it all innocent like, it meant something else entirely. Luckily only some right thickos fell for that.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Well, you think he's one of the bad guys, so it must mean something bad, just need to work it out

Except that's not true at all. I used to like Stewart lee.

Nobody has offered an even close to credible alternative explanation for what he said. I think I'm on firmer grounds than awesome needs a lie down wells and the other apologists.

 

[killer b]

Nobody has offered an even close to credible alternative explanation for what he said.

*cough*

FWIW I don't think Stewart Lee hates scousers, I think it was a poorly considered rhetorical device. But it was a device he wouldn't have used against a different target. And I'm not convinced it's a reference to Hillsborough, although I can see how it could be read that way (and considering the way the whiny scousers meme has become wrapped up with Hillsborough over the years, another reason to avoid).

 

[andysays]

Fuck off you sanctimonious cunt. You're miles off too - I used to quite like Stewart lee, before this I had no real axe to grind with him.

It's the words 'profit from' that are key here. If you don't see how that taps into myths around Hillsborough that's your problem and not mine.

You can fuck off with the implication that they're making me 'more likely to support UKIP' too.

"profit from" refers to scouse comedians mining this same old whiney themes, at least that's how I understood it, but I'm sure you know best.

A number of people have said that the form of the attacks on UKIP has made them more likely to support them, and though I'm not going back to check, I'm pretty sure you were one of them.

From memory, you said if you weren't involved with union and standing for TUSC, you'd be inclined to vote for them too, but if I have totally imagined this, which I doubt, I apologise.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Except that's not true at all. I used to like Stewart lee.

Nobody has offered an even close to credible alternative explanation for what he said. I think I'm on firmer grounds than awesome needs a lie down wells and the other apologists.

Used to, and now he's a smug liberal middle class hero.

 

[butchersapron]

FWIW I don't think Stewart Lee hates scousers, I think it was a poorly considered rhetorical device. But it was a device he wouldn't have used against a different target. And I'm not convinced it's a reference to Hillsborough, although I can see how it could be read that way (and considering the way the whiny scousers meme has become wrapped up with Hillsborough over the years, another reason to avoid).

Largely go with this but that he did it under the banner of the suarez doctrine, which means he knew full well it would be read as referring to hillsborough and was happy to let that stand as he had his potential cover story ready made - but which also suggests intention for it to be read that way.

 

[MrSki]

Used to, and now he's a smug liberal middle class hero.

Before he mentioned Liverpool.

 

[sleaterkinney]

What the fuck is "the banner of the Suarez doctrine"

 

[ViolentPanda]

I dunno, simply voting for whoever turns up at your doorstep seems pretty stupid to me.

But it's not "voting for whoever turns up at your doorstep", it's voting for a party that's bothered to engage with you as a member of the electorate; that's bothered to listen to your concerns. Canvassing works, especially when the mainstream parties have all but withdrawn from the doorstep due to a lack of activists. Some of UKIP's ward wins are clear proof of that.

 

[butchersapron]

What the fuck is "the banner of the Suarez doctrine"

It's what i explained above - the one you defended racial abuse under. Saying something knowingly out of order with a ready made plausible denial (one that the naive or tainted can buy without much effort).

 

[SpineyNorman]

*cough*

Where does the 'profit from' bit come from then?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Used to, and now he's a smug liberal middle class hero.

Think what you want - you're 'explanation' for why I've taken exception to his comments doesn't hold up either way.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Thinking that what you say to a doorstep canvasser is going to influence a political party's national policy, note taker or no note taker, is also pretty stupid.

More contempt for the working class, Frank?
What people are (surprising as it may seem to you) aware of is that councillors have traction on local policy.

 

[sleaterkinney]

It's what i explained above - the one you defended racial abuse under. Saying something knowingly out of order with a ready made plausible denial (one that the naive or tainted can buy without much effort).

You can fuck right off with that.

 

[butchersapron]

You can fuck right off with that.

Indeed, that's the response of most sensible people to use of the suarez doctrine.

 

[SpineyNorman]

"profit from" refers to scouse comedians mining this same old whiney themes, at least that's how I understood it, but I'm sure you know best.

A number of people have said that the form of the attacks on UKIP has made them more likely to support them, and though I'm not going back to check, I'm pretty sure you were one of them.

From memory, you said if you weren't involved with union and standing for TUSC, you'd be inclined to vote for them too, but if I have totally imagined this, which I doubt, I apologise.

You should apologise then. I said it made me 'feel like' voting for them. And it does. I wouldn't vote for them regardless of what other campaigns I'm involved in though. I made this perfectly clear.

 

[Awesome Wells]

No. I mean your responses to any kind of criticism of Stewart lee - you know, the ones where you say, 'yeah he should take the piss out of darkies or something you'd like that more'.

i didnt say that; that's you, again, twisting what someone else has said.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Indeed, that's the response of most sensible people to use of the suarez doctrine.

"Naive or tainted" - but I know better.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Wait this suarez doctrine thing...does it cover calling Black people Coconuts or Uncle Tom instead of just calling them traitors as you would White people?

 

[andysays]

Note the slip from def not in the first para to well maybe it did, it's just what i think in the second. And a genuine example of the sort of crude stereotyping employed by Lee in the third. Is that you Stew? Note also, another example of the blossoming tantrum genre.

Another knee-jerk hate-filled response, which merely illustrates that you haven't read properly what you're responding to. If only you were as perceptive as you think you are.

Still looking forward to the turmoil, butchers?

All UKIP are doing is exploiting the understandable anger and fear people have, and turning it into hate.

You're full of the same anger, fear and hate, and although you shout like a big brave man on the internet, you're powerless and irrelevent, and deep down you know it. All this posturing is just compensation...

Populist whipping up of anger fear and hate may lead to turmoil, but there's no way the impotent raging left, which you unfortunately epitomise, will be able to make any headway against it.

Keep wanking along to your election returns - maybe if you ask Nigel nicely he'll give you a job as an adviser or analyst.

 

[SpineyNorman]

i didnt say that; that's you, again, twisting what someone else has said.

yeah!

fucking wanker liberal elite metropolitan CUNT! I fucking hate that stewart lees, he's a fucking tosser. Why can't he stick to proper jokes, like why do asians smell of curry, or why is black people's lips so big? Fucking taking the piss out of people that take a hypocritical attitude toward movement of people across the continent - CUNT! CUNT CUNT!

 

[butchersapron]

Wait this suarez doctrine thing...does it cover calling Black people Coconuts or Uncle Tom instead of just calling them traitors as you would White people?

Of course it would in most uses.

 

[butchersapron]

Another knee-jerk hate-filled response, which merely illustrates that you haven't read properly what you're responding to. If only you were as perceptive as you think you are.

Still waiting for the turmoil, butchers?

All UKIP are doing is exploiting the understandable anger and fear people have, and turning it into hate.

You're full of the same anger, fear and hate, and although you shout like a big brave man on the internet, you're powerless and irrelevent, and deep down you know it. All this posturing is just compensation...

Populist whipping up of anger fear and hate, may lead to turmoil, but there's no way the impotent raging left, which you unfortunately epitomise, will be able to make any headway against it.

Keep wanking along to your election returns - maybe if you ask Nigel nicely he'll give you a job as an adviser or analyst.

We really do need a UKIP-tantrum thread for those who don't want to actually discuss the politics around this.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I doubt we can explain that much of the UKIP vote by them canvassing...

We can explain some of it, though.

...cos they won't have the people on the ground to do more than scratch the surface.

Conversely, their having few activists relative to the main parties may have meant that they deployed their activists tactically

And their vote is so widespread, with them even getting one MEP in scotland and wales. They are connecting for othe reasons. Sure canvassing helps but its not the explanation.

No-one has claimed that it was. What I said up-thread was that the sense I got from relatives "on the ground" was that in Great Yarmouth the primary reason for how well they did was because they supposedly canvassed wards that the other parties either ignored, or took for granted.