8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Hard to say, do you have the protocol to hand?
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
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Hard to say, do you have the protocol to hand?
bimble
floofy
I've only ever known one set of identical twins but they lived their lives in a remarkable closeness that involved doing the same thing at the same uni, dressing very similarly etc. I think hanging 'transness is genetic' onto this finding about 40% of identical twins who are trans having their twin also come out as trans is ridiculous.
As is the claim of the man interviewed in your link saying this number is not higher because hey the other twin might just not have come out yet.
Twin studies are notoriously tricky to draw conclusions from. Confounding factors are plentiful. This is year 1 social science stuff.
If it is genetic, how come 60% of those individuals with gender dysphoria had a genetically-identical twin that did not have it too? At the very least, that implies incredibly strong environmental factors.
If it is genetic, how come 60% of those individuals with gender dysphoria had a genetically-identical twin that did not have it too? At the very least, that implies incredibly strong environmental factors.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Innit! Not only that :
So they reviewed the papers only which supported a biological basis for gender identity, and came to the conclusion from those papers there is a biological basis.
Ben Goldacre has written a lot about it in his All Trials campaign. It is problematic to only look at positive results which which support your theory, and can lead to false positives.
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8ball
Maximum Facepalm
None of which is to say there *aren't* any biological or genetic bases to gender issues, but so far this doesn't look like a scientific consensus to me (having admittedly only looked at bits of it, and not in detail).
bimble
floofy
Here's what looks like the basis of that twin study smokedout the numbers are tiny as you'd expect and the aim was obviously to find genetic causes.
Pacific Center for Sex and Society - Transsexuality Among Twins: Identity Concordance, Transition, Rearing, and Orientation
Pacific Center for Sex and Society - Transsexuality Among Twins: Identity Concordance, Transition, Rearing, and Orientation
But it's not the only evidence is it? The truth is no-ones knows whether there is a biological basis for transgenderism, including you, but there is growing evidence to support it. Hanging millions of transgender people out to dry and the basis of a scientific hunch that it's all to do with patriarchy strikes me as a pretty closed minded.
There’s actually growing evidence that supports humans having extraordinary brain plasticity that adapts to its environment and is against the idea of pre-written templates. I don’t know about this opposite thing to that growing consensus as suggested by you. Certainly, your linked paper is wholly unconvincing.
I'd suggest the evidence means it shouldn't be ruled out, so blanket statements about the impossibility of transgenderism having some kind of biological basis are unscientific. And given the unknowns perhaps taking seriously how transgender people often desribe experiencing their bodies might prove fruitful.
bimble
floofy
"growing scientific consensus" not exactly what you meant to say then.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
god forbid a literature review on a subject looks at literature on that subject and assesses it.
Innit! Not only that :
So they reviewed the papers only which supported a biological basis for gender identity, and came to the conclusion from those papers there is a biological basis.
Ben Goldacre has written a lot about it in his All Trials campaign. It is problematic to only look at positive results which which support your theory, and can lead to false positives.
however, a literature review isn't at the top of the medical evidence pyramid, which is occupied by systematic reviews.
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FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Yeah. This is definitely the "lady brain" sexist shit I was talking about.
Next week: The black brain and phrenology.
Next week: The black brain and phrenology.
Are you accusing scientific journals reporting the evidence of sexism or the researchers? Do you think this research should be prevented?
I just don't think the actual results say what you think they say.
For example, being exposed to androgens in utero is an environmental factor.
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
My ring finger is longer than my index finger AND I have gender disphoria. Co incidence?
I. think. not.
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Yes, like both of mine. "No woman should have to identify with her shackles. Gender is the oppressor not a mere "identity"" and "People asking women to give up their hard won seats at the political table should ponder on why do those seats need to be taken from women when men are the one's who are over represented on that table."
I've no doubt you believe this. I have a suspicion it's all you're willing to believe. Because being led into deserted site by an adult man who makes you touch his fucking penis knowing a priori your word won't be believed if you complain on the grounds that **you're a child** and, if that fails, you can always be deemed a precocious little whore which is somehow all to do with choosing one's woman's "gender identity" and **nothing** to do with you happening to be having a vagina. I'm too fond of my blurb but I may just change it temporarily to
I can but to give you my own example which is pretty much splashed out on this thread. I was asleep and now I've woken up. Tell you more. I'm making it one of my missions to wake other women up to what may lie in waiting for their daughters, grandaughters, nieces and friends. Tell you what more. Even in deep leafy right wing Surrey, women don't forget where they have come from and how they got here. They certainly don't think men like you and your brogressivehood suddenly decided to, by the kindness of your hearts, relinquish power to women. Tell you even more. This is not the only forum I stop at. I also talk to feminists in Portugal and Brazil for example. It may seem strange to you but in my brief voyage of discovery the most informative links I found were not in English even though some linked to some English language thought. Conversations are being had. Have not doubt about it.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
My ring finger is longer than my index finger AND I have gender disphoria. Co incidence?
I. think. not.
But hang on, we could fix your gender issues easily enough in that case, just give me your hand a sec...
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
I thought I could let this go but I really, really can't.
You want to get personal. Let's get fucking personal. Don't you dare come to me with race after insisting on labeling me as cisgender as you did when you knew fuck all about me on the Dolezal thread (yes, it took me a while to work out that was you but I got there... eventually).
Let me enlighten you on something. I DO NOT wake up thinking I'm a woman or having to reassure myself I am one, or having to deny I am one any more than I wake up thinking I am black and having to reassure myself I'm not as unacceptable as society deems me to be. Does that, as CBB India put it, "penetrate"?
I "live" woman. I've always "lived" woman. My mum gave me a woman name because I had a **vagina**. I might have been given a man name like João or Manuel, in which case, I'd also be given a first name of Maria because I had a **vagina**. My biological father felt free to lie to my mum about his being married and get her pregnant and then attempt to compel her into an abortion because my mum had no legal recourse to the law because she had a **vagina**. My dad gave me his name because not doing so would condemn my mum to the fringes of society because she had a **vagina**. Even so, when we lived in right below the roof of a house, an abode for which rent my mum was overcharged because she had a **vagina**, where we didn't have a bath or a shower but only an oversized plastic bowl that my mum also used to do the laundry, my dad (when he turned up, seeing as possessing a **penis** meant he went about his life largely unchallenged for his paternal lack of responsibility) made sure my brother was always the first to be bathed (even though I complained the water was cold when my turn came) because he had a **penis**. And, one year, when I wanted to be dressed as a cowboy, for carnival, like my brother, rather than as a Minnie Mouse as my sister liked or as a Mumuíla girl, as my mum always preferred, my dad told me "no" because I had a **vagina**.
He beat my mum up under the roof which rent she paid because she had a **vagina** and my neighbour never called the police because *vaginas* were below defending.
My mum made me and my sister learn to sew and cross-stitch despite our lack of interest in both because she deemed those skills as needed for people with **vaginas**. And, to this day,in my mums's eyes, I live in the shadow of my brother, that **penis** owner who probably got into cooking more than I did because he wasn't pressured into it and learned out of interest rather than an obligation foisted upon **vagina** owners like moi.
When I was young I remember listening to the gossip around the town's grown ups with a keen interest. I remember one of my teenage neighbours got pregnant by her boyfriend. He, not wanting to take up the responsibility of a child, the case went to court and, this being before the rise of DNA testing, he took all of his friends to stand before the judge and claim they had had sex with her. Her word meant nowt in the face of so many men corroborating the one bastard's story and I can only imagine what a spectacle of woman humilliation those proceedings must have been and the effect of that on my neighbour of a whole society not just abandoning her in her hour of need but also punishing her for the sole sin of possessing a **vagina*. And that's just one of the incidents what yours truly pondered later on opening my mouth about one of my school colleagues friends dad sexually abusing me could mean more trouble to me that it may have been worth.
Your bringing up race to this only diminishes **your** own case. To me, race is one of the oppressors just like gender is. To you gender is an identity and, in your struggle to be accepted as a mere woman, one you seek to foist upon me and in total and complete disregard of me, of my individuality and of my claim to **humanhood**. Got it? Humanhood not womanhood. My sex is female. Womanhood was thrust upon me like a fucking penis and I find it the height of ideological privilege for you to even think you know more about me than *I* do.
No wonder you find it "Gobsmacking". Had you actually been subjected to womanhood quite as profoundly as I have, you wouldn't be so convinced of having somehow seized a moral high ground from which you think yourself justified and entitled to bring race into it on a day when black women are mourning their ancestors whose bodies were used to advance gynecology for the benefit of white women (those with **vaginas* that is). How dare you to try and emotionally manipulate me into thinking sex and race are any way similar outside their raisons dêtre to oppress. Your views on gender are much more insidiously pernicious than any of the KKK on race because they blur the waters so much as to politically disempower women. And you call yourself my sister. Ah! With sisters like you...
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MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Last time I checked, The Morning Star was the political voice of those closer to socialism. Where do you think gender critical socialism should have a voice, especially now that you and your sisters want any one with an ounce of doubt about trans ideology or simple concern about the direction of travel for women be expelled from the Labour Party?
And before that, since your tactics were to silence women either 1. by appealing to their, no doubt very feminine, "maternal instincts", or compassion to somehow think that the suicides (or attempts) of transgender women are somehow more worrying or worthier of concern than the suicides of women in general to the point of accusing them of deliberately causing them by pointing to biology as the starting point of woman oppression; or 2. Verbally attacking women who so much put their heads above the parapet online and otherwise; 3. Misrepresenting many of those women's views 4. attempting to get women removed from their jobs such as Kiri Tunks; until 5. the physical attack that's in the origin of this very thread and which, from what I have seen so far, has been the greatest propelling force to getting people to talk about the implications for women of an ideology little understood (even the remote and snoringly boring corner of womanhood that is my local WI is taking an interest in radical feminism, I hear, and I welcome it).
Where exactly should our views be aired when you close all venues to us? Did you not have a responsibility to hear us out as opposed to hounding us out by force or by cunning?
You mean, stuff like this?
In what way is this liberatory/liberating for **vagina** owners like me and my nieces? Gender is a spectrum how does that help the pangender woman who has to put her career on hold to bear children at some point or be made to feel undervalued humans if they happen to be infertile or just unlucky? How does that help these thousands of baby girls ? Does whatever I see myself as prevent you from classing me as cis, or some men looking at me out in the street referring to me as "that" as in "I'd have a piece of that"? Nah... this kind of view only moves people away from explanations of why the human world works the way it does and solving the cunundrums they find by giving them a sense that all is alright if you pick a *colour* or make your own. Seriously?
Weren't they? Weren't you? Did people believe you when you started protesting? Did they start treating you as a girl because you said so? What is wrong with you? You tell ostensibly one story and you try to push legislation based on that story and then you condemn us for believing it and thus taking our own conclusions by comparing and contrasting it against our own stories which, incidentally, you find no problem whatsoever with erasing and relegating to a second plane as you try to widen the scope of your story to become THE story of gender? And you wonder about how fast it took to reach 12K of relatively small donations?
Fucking hell... You say this on the same breath as you try to speak of race to people who have lived it as well?
There you go again... Lumping us all again as ever as if we were of the same material condition. Because we all asked to be men or women and be treated as such?
You're quite wrong regarding some of us though... We've only just started to think of the implications of what you say about us (more than whatever you say about you - from your side of the magic fence you lot created, we're living the life, innit?).
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What I think is that making political and medical decisions based on unknown science is unethical when those decisions might harm people.
And not one that would go away in a post gender society.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
That's seems to me to be what we're doing all the time with gender re-assignment operations.
Making a guess and hoping it works out.
I couldn't agree more.
Of course it wouldn't. But the consequences would be vastly different, because gender is a socialised factor.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Arguably it might mean not having to cut bits off people. But I guess that depends to what degree all aspects of gender are created by socialisation rather than just shaped by it.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's certainly what we do with socialisation
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Agreeing that one feature of humans is extreme brain plasticity, what that allows is for us to be socialised into very different cultures. But it also means we need to learn an awful lot of stuff in order to be socialised/socialise ourselves (not a passive learning). Some of that learning involves biological sex. I'm not sure how a 'genderless society' would be possible or desirable, for that reason - men and women have different bodies, men are generally bigger and stronger, women give birth and breast feed. All these things require socialisation so that we treat each other well, and that puts us into the realms of gender, no?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
men being bigger and stronger doesn't require socialisation, does it?
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
Not genderless society, ''genderless society''. ie one where gender is not a source of inequality and oppression. Not one where it absolutely doesn't exist in any form. I thought I'd made that distinction clear, but there it is anyway.
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