bimble
floofy
But what would 'living as a woman' mean if we imagine a society without masculine / feminine gender roles. Basically just wearing a bra?
Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
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mojo pixy
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Is that what I posted? Read it again. Live as the opposite sex says nothing about surgery. I'm not denying sex may still have meaning in a ''genderless society''. How, I don't know if I can say, but sex itself is a fairly stark division and yes,
- in my opinion however society changes structurally to erase disadvantage between the biological sexes
- even if total and absolute structural equality is conceived and made to exist, yes,
I still think people will create cultural differences of their own around sex, and I do believe people will still want to cross that basic binary divide.
Pure speculation.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
sure there's some men already doing that
Cloo
Approved by toads
mojo pixy
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Come on, not all women wear such a thing.
Now look what you're making me do. Mansplaining bras ffs.
But come on then, what might 'living as a woman' mean in this genderless world we're imagining ?
mojo pixy
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I think what I mean is that the equal in equality doesn't mean identical. And I'm speculating that people will still create cultural distinctions based on biological sex even when complete structural equality is up and running. Like gender will still exist in a ''genderless society'' (which is why I put ''genderless society'' in quotes before) but however someone chooses to present their gender won't cause them any disadvantage - that's the ''genderless'' bit, I think.
Jonti
what the dormouse said
So, if I'm following this rightly, "Batman" cannot be a man, and to call him Batman makes precisely that point?
Jonti
what the dormouse said
That's true afaik, but what's also interesting is the nature of the sanctions that transgressors might run into. Folks should be able to dress and express themselves freely.
mojo pixy
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Sanctions and Transgression (as a negative act drawing disapproval and punishment, at least) would also need to be gone for a ''genderless society'' to really happen, wouldn't they?
Yep. Same. And fair play to MY for joining the thread.
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Anyway I'm still quite confused TBH. Trans sexual verses trans gender, I think I get that.
e2a
Just to clarify, I don't have a problem with people expressing gender in any way they want. Or rather subverting gender norms which are quite arbitary, (pink was a "boys" colour in the 19C,) wasteful and inhibiting to humanity's potential IMO.
But trans gender, the latter can theoretically comprise of males, raised and socialised as mails, who then for their own reasons declair themselves to be a woman. Nothing more, than a self declaration. Then demand admittance to women only spaces. Which in this case, is clearly fucked up.
Yes, how often and many trans gender people match that crued extreme, I'd think not many, sure. But that extreme seems to be where most of the argument around this issue is, on that essential point. Where self definition comes into conflict with social reality.
And I still don't really know why trans gender is such a massive thing now. Where did it come from in the last few years.
Trans sexual, on the other hand, I've always held the crude understanding, born in the wrong body type thing. Yes I know some reject it but it's useful so far as understanding and empathizing.
But I'm sure all this is cleared up in the next 300 odd messages...
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Apart from their bodies? Given the emerging scientific consensus that transgenderism has a biological or genetic root and that symptoms of childhood gender dysphoria include discomfort with body/genitalia (not gender role) at an age where ideas of gender are barely fully formed I suspect you are wrong.
And let's say you are wrong and the trans critical feminists achieve their aim of morally mandating transsexuality out of existence - which in reality would just mean pushing it back underground. Will you apologise to trans people? Will you say hey sorry we trashed your lives and thought you were liars, turns out our theory was wrong.
Also, in the event of medical advances that might make it possible for someone born male bodied to carry a child then why wouldn't some biological men choose this, or some biological women choose to prevent it? Is wanting to have a baby a purely feminine thing/
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
Ok, two different things going on there, guess we can't have both.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25667367
That doesn't look much like an emerging scientific consensus to me. Just a paper.
Treacle Toes
Time
I don't see those things as different, I think they are part and parcel of the same thing. What am I missing?
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
I don't see those things as different, I think they are part and parcel of the same thing. What am I missing?
The first one looks a bit like abolishing gender, the second looks like an effort to assign equal value (on various level) to the contents of gender categories.
Which can be subject to a few traps.
It’s not a gendeless society then!
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
More a "freedom of gendered behavior" society.
bimble
floofy
Where is the actual paper ? I can't find a link to it, all I can see is that it is a review of the literature that currently exists in support of that idea. Nothing to do with an 'emerging scientific consensus'.
Not even that, from the sounds of it.
It's a review of the literature so far.
bimble
floofy
great. "female brain" is back.
Actually read what is written there, his 3 areas of research that support the idea, and how they stand up. Do you find a single piece of that compelling in any way seriously?
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8ball
Maximum Facepalm
It's a revolving-door news story. Comes around in some form every so often.
What's funny in that link is that they use a lack of simple differences between male and female brains to impute an innate non-binaryness and then try to relate that to transgenderism.
bimble
floofy
Its bonkers.
Or transgendered brain, which is what the evidence actually suggests. This doesn't necessarily mean anything in terms of gendered behaviour, it could be something we don't understand related to sense of our bodies and how we experience them.
So how would you explain the twin studies?
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