Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?
- Thread starter The Flying Pig
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Sounds like a veiled threat.
uh huh.
8ball
Maximum Facepalm
I'm a bit foggy on what "abolishing gender" means.
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
I did look at the link, and at the disgusting comments left by contributors. I’ve never suggested that the TERFs are a powerful and well funded lobby. Quite the opposite. Since my first posts on this thread I’ve been arguing that they are a marginal and politically defeated fringe group. They only have any real significance in so far as they provide seemingly progressive arguments and a stream of shock stories for the use of the actually rich and powerful transphobic lobby, the forces of social conservatism, and help to disorient left wing responses to transphobia.
If they didn’t play that role nobody would care about their views at all and the only people who would even have heard of them would be people like me who happen to have an interest in bizarre political sects and subcultures.TERFs are so marginal in fact that I’ve never once heard anyone make a left wing or feminist transphobic argument in real life. It’s almost entirely an online phenomenon, particularly outside of Britain.
Not at all, Miranda commrented on real life examples, so here's a real life example Miranda Yardley. Your office cleaner comes out as trans, do you refuse to use the correct profile for their acquired gender?
I won't post the lyrics here to Stripped, Raped and Strangled by Cannibal Corpse who in 2014 featured on the front cover of the magazine Miranda edits and publishes, but they are easy enough to find. I can't find any examples of the horrific misogyny that is embedded within some extreme metal scenes being challenged in Terrorizer magazine, all I find is gushing reviews. It seems Miranda's feminist principles only go as far as misgendering transpeople - promoting bands glorifying rape in a magazine read by children is fine. To me that seems a strange set of priorities for a radical feminist. But then I'm sure Miranda's money helps them sleep at night.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Abolishing the idea that there are ‘masculine’ / ‘feminine’ behaviours / ways of being etc. Anyone, regardless of their sex will be able to wear what they want / do what job they want etc etc. Patriarchy will be dismantled basically.
Sex will be the only difference between men and women.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
Like a white person saying they've never seen racism. Gobsmacking. If TERFism only existed online then we could all safely disregard them.
All the cis women I know who have tried to be allies to trans people have been attacked - not just online. There are anti trans editorials in the Morning Star for fecks sake. TERFs - some who are powerful and wealthy with good political and media links - are managing to lobby government, their arguments particularly seem to appeal to right wing christian Tories who seem to be parroting radical feminist arguments in some of their literature now, and getting their arguments into The Times, The Express (can you believe that the Express have turned feminist all of a sudden just so they have an extra argument against trans people?), the Mail, on to Mumsnet. This stuff is getting into schools now in order to undermine us at the most fundamental level. If children can't transition and have treatment then they devlop in a way that will hurt them and wreck their lives. Trans women will have facial hair, most likely be tall, and have deep voices. Then the TERFs come along and say those trans adults must be excluded because they "look like men" and were "socialised as boys". It's a pretty obvious tactic to us. Cis people on the whole can't see it and will often collude in parts of it without realising or they refuse to challenge their own prejudices on this subject.
Sea Star
have you ever explored your dark side?
This is right before they attempt to show that our behaviour makes us men and that trans women have a pattern of "male behaviour". Another reason I can't argue with them. Ludicrous. Double standards. Hypocrisy
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Destroying the structures that make gender a hierarchy where "female", "feminine" and "womanhood" are seen as lesser than or under "male", "masculine" and "manhood".
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Which entails...?
MochaSoul
It's being enslaved of your own free will
Oh yes, because coming up with an infinity of genders from "the sea" to "virgo" ostensibly [but not reaallly] to describe the variety of [now] 7 billion of people is the solution. Care to tell me how that may help my nieces when they go for a job interview after ticking their gender as "pure light" and the prospective employer only sees the probabilities of having to pay them time off to have a baby?
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FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Challenging the notion that there are male and female essences. The end of pink/blue marketisation of girl/womanhood and boy/manhood would be a nice goal.
It's OK for women to wear trousers but how about heels and dresses for men? Poll pocket and jewelry craft for boys and remote controlled cars and train sets for girls without the insinuation io "weirdness"?
The linking of feminine men to gayness (because homophobic stereotypes still exist, and are directly linked to femininity).
Allowing "feminine" to be an acceptable description for men and not one of ridicule would be a start. With an end goal of "masculine and feminine eventually meaning the same thing.
The problem at the moment is that the men need to be active in this to make it work, but they don't really want to because they are too sold to on female/male essence and have too much power to lose.
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bimble
floofy
[QUOTE="Nigel Irritable, post: 15399778, member: 1131]"..the only people who would even have heard of them would be people like me who happen to have an interest in bizarre political sects and subcultures..[/QUOTE]
This is a classic case of projection i think. All you know about is 'bizarre political sects' so that is all you see. To a man with a hammer etc.
This is a classic case of projection i think. All you know about is 'bizarre political sects' so that is all you see. To a man with a hammer etc.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I wouldn't word it like that but yes, it is intended to take their political position into the real world and see how it works. I used a club rather than work because most of us have to compromise in order to make a living.
bimble
floofy
What about the real world situation of women only shortlists in the labour party being redefined as lists for people who self-identify as women ? Do you think that's a good idea ? Do you think people objecting to it are hate-speeching transphobes who should be kicked out of the party?
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Athos
Well-Known Member
It's possible to aspire to a better future (where there is no gender i.e. when certain traits/ behaviours aren't socially imposed according to sex) whilst recognising the current reality (i.e. that they are). There's no double standard there; nothing hypocritical in recognising the affects of socialisation - in fact, it's that recognition that inspires the desire to move beyond.
Not that I like the way this is sometimes weaponised against trans people, particularly when it is done so dishonestly e.g. the misrepresentation of the research around trans women's rates of offending.
Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
It's turning to chaos, It will not end well.
Opening the women's shortlist to 'self-identified women' marginalises all women, and doesn't address problems of under-representation in any way.
I support the fundraiser.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
the identification of pink with girls and blue with boys is of recent origin https://jezebel.com/5790638/the-history-of-pink-for-girls-blue-for-boys so it's likely to change again in the future, it's not like it's set in stone. one thing i particularly object to is that e.g. blue razors are cheaper than identical but pink razors. there most certainly is a 'pink pound' extracted by supermarkets and chemists and other shops but it's girls and women paying the price. turning to your final sentence i don't entirely agree that men don't want to - some men, no doubt, don't want to, some do: and others won't have given the matter any thought. there's a role incumbent on men who want change to play in persuading other men of both the desirability and necessity of change.
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Miranda Yardley
Willing Warrior.
-
Fixed it for ya.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
how much are you giving?
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
Yes... I know. I used Pink and blue as the metaphor everyone can understand.
Pink/blue is a representation of the cultural "for girls only" or "for boys only" categories used for marketing purposes. It currently is pink and blue. But however those boxes manifest is pretty nasty stuff.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes... i know. you've said that above.
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
When gender is truly abolished both men and women will be able to expect paid time off for birth time and parenting, and fathers will be legally required to take compassionate days off equally with mothers to care for children or other relatives who fall ill. Men will all be capable of such caring tasks, as the education system will have made sure they too have the necessary skills because it won't be considered women's work any more.
I don't think all this will stop some men and women from wanting to live as the opposite sex, though. I admit that's just a hunch.
EtA, tbf I think the increasing equality between men and women and the overall greater mixing of sexes in public space is a cause of this phenomenon in and of itself. I can't imagine many men wanting to live as women in say medieval Europe. Though I can certainly see how many women might want to live as men in those days.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
legally required? legally entitled, perhaps, but will - or should - it be a requirement to do so?
mojo pixy
שיר חדש
It would depend on the state of national manhood at that time (to be clear, I'm including trans men in that). These days I think it'd be needed, a kind of gender-based affirmative action. At some imaginary future time, men might already be doing more family caring and it wouldn't.
What would that actually mean in a truly genderless world?
So you anticipate people will want to have surgical procedures in order to change nothing about the way they are actually living?
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